Guinness Pro 12 2014/15: Three changes for next year

[Amiga500]

You have no idea what your talking about.

It must be tough being a wee man from the valleys and seeing the rest of the world move forward while your caught in a timewarp. No wonder you've a chip in both shoulders with much vitrol directed at people you feel should have somehow stopped the world turning in 1993 (or so).


Canute couldn't hold back the tide and the IRB couldn't hold back professionalism. Neither could the WRU. The Welsh club game was ill equipped for professionalism so radical measures had to be undertaken. Whether it was done right or not is now moot. Something had to be done, something was done, and now the Welsh rugby public have to live with it. Support it or don't, its a free country, but whining for "the good old days" is pathetic and naive.

 

[valley commando]

You seem to believe that from a golden patch in the nineties that Ponty should be the top club in the world and if I remember didn't Ponty go bankrupt or near after that period. The history of Cardiff rfc is a lot more touring test sides beaten is just an example and but you don't get the point Cardiff Blues are not Cardiff rfc they are a separate team that was setup by Cardiff rfc. The reason why Cardiff got a pro team is because Cardiff is the capital city of Wales and is where a lot of the wealth in the country is and a population of 350,000 concentrated in a small area. Pontypridd is a small town with a population of 30,000. Yet because the pro team was based in Cardiff and not Ponty and the one Ponty fans did get was shared with Bridgend you seem to believe the capital should lose it's pro team and that it should be moved to a small town. There was nothing stopping Ponty fans supporting a pro team based out of Cardiff and named Cardiff and still supporting Ponty. Welsh rugby has changed and has moved on from small clubs in small towns who can't support pro rugby to bigger franchise style clubs in cities with the population to support pro rugby. Even if there was ever the money to create a 5th pro team then because of the way Ponty has behaved towards Welsh rugby then you can bet it will be in North Wales and not Pontypridd.

Here we go again, big headed big mouthed city boy thinks he knows it all, how come if cardiff is over 10 times the size of Ponty you get less than three times the crowd we get, furthermore you've never won a trophy, just paid for them in days gone by with boot money.
Next know self respecting Ponty fan is going to watch cardiff even if the tickets were free, we may be a small town but have always punched above our weight, cardiff on the other hand have always slapped below their weight.
Finally its not the way we behave towards the WRUin, its the way they behave towards us.
But there again typical city boy knows it all and is never wrong.

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It must be tough being a wee man from the valleys and seeing the rest of the world move forward while your caught in a timewarp. No wonder you've a chip in both shoulders with much vitrol directed at people you feel should have somehow stopped the world turning in 1993 (or so).


Canute couldn't hold back the tide and the IRB couldn't hold back professionalism. Neither could the WRU. The Welsh club game was ill equipped for professionalism so radical measures had to be undertaken. Whether it was done right or not is now moot. Something had to be done, something was done, and now the Welsh rugby public have to live with it. Support it or don't, its a free country, but whining for "the good old days" is pathetic and naive.

Yes definitely got a chip on both shoulders, also got a sense of history and justice. We got stitched up by the WRUin, a region for a year, the region which I might add performed better than any other region during that 12 months, reaching the Euro 1/4 final.
Finally this is not an Irish argument its a Welsh one, I wouldnt dream of calling you pathetic and naive if you had an argument based within Irish rugby that you were passionate about.

 

[Bluemoon]

Here we go again, big headed big mouthed city boy thinks he knows it all, how come if cardiff is over 10 times the size of Ponty you get less than three times the crowd we get, furthermore you've never won a trophy, just paid for them in days gone by with boot money.

Yes definitely got a chip on both shoulders, also got a sense of history and justice..

Valley you big WUM, never won a trophy :lol:. Also, three times the crowd size Cardiff Blues get, or the CRFC? The CRFC fans all support the Cardiff Blues. I very rarely go to the RFC games because we have a professional team that was originally designed to represent Cardiff and the Vale. Don't be so ridiculous in comparing the semi-pro side crowds when the CRFC side is just the development side.

Up to you which Welsh professional team you support, if you decide support any at all. If we're all frank we really don't want you as fans (unless you want to be). However, Cardiff Blues need to develop a widespread player development structure through the area Cardiff Blues have been given the responsibility for. We will never match French and English resources, so player development is important.

Can I bring this back to topic, I'd like to add a 4th point to my original three:

1. I'd like Merthyr and the Cardiff Blues to forge a very, very effective relationship next year.

 

[Saints1]

How about we all stop saying "not got a clue" "big time city boy" "chip on your shoulder" etc etc.

 

[Peat]

Whether it was done right or not is now moot. Something had to be done, something was done, and now the Welsh rugby public have to live with it.

That's the most important part of this debate for me tbh. It's done now and I don't think there's a way back. It's an easy thing to say from where I'm sitting, but the reluctance of the Welsh rugby public to acknowledge this and move on/the failure of the Welsh regions to sell this is pretty crippling, not just for Welsh rugby in general, but the Pro 12 as a whole.

 

[psychic duck]

That's the most important part of this debate for me tbh. It's done now and I don't think there's a way back. It's an easy thing to say from where I'm sitting, but the reluctance of the Welsh rugby public to acknowledge this and move on/the failure of the Welsh regions to sell this is pretty crippling, not just for Welsh rugby in general, but the Pro 12 as a whole.

You do realise that Valley Commando is nothing but a massively deluded lying troll?

 

[Rich Taff]

I can't believe the big time city boy trf saints has got involved in this discussion with a chip on your shoulder. Not got a clue!

(sorry, forgot I posted on this thread, but have to say WOW on the 'I want to go back to living in the 70's' when the world was a far bigger, scarier place, so we ignored anything outside the clubhouse ) comments from a certain person.


(yes, I still can't quite figure out how to do that link thingy with member names! )

 

[Bluemoon]

That's the most important part of this debate for me tbh. It's done now and I don't think there's a way back. It's an easy thing to say from where I'm sitting, but the reluctance of the Welsh rugby public to acknowledge this and move on/the failure of the Welsh regions to sell this is pretty crippling, not just for Welsh rugby in general, but the Pro 12 as a whole.

I share this, belief and actually feel Welsh club rugby would not be able to compete in current rugby climate.

To be honest it's only really very small areas of Wales making a big fuss, not really the whole of Welsh rugby. I know Valley is a Wum, but he's saying a lot of the things that Ponty fans are actually saying.

It's exasperating as a Cardiff Blues fan at the moment and it's just another thing holding the team back (amongst other things).

Just a quick note, a lot of the teams and media are starting to call the four teams the professional teams. This is mainly due to poor way regionalism occurred and the negative connotation of a region.

 

[gaston le gaff]

From my little experience with Welsh clubs i think the supporters have to get behind the regionals to move them forward, i have been to Cardiff many times for Internationals and whether there are tickets or not available, the whole of Wales is in the Cardiff bars., so why can't they do this at regional level. The changes to pro rugby are enormous but its moved forward and the supporters have to do the same. The old way i loved, but its gone same at Montpellier but this is progress whether you like it or not. Wales have never done much in Europe and not likely too if things stay the same. To have a competitive 3/4 Welsh regional teams would be a tremendous stepping stone for the whole country, but Wales has to get bums on seats for the pro 12 Championship, i still have SC4 in France and the stadiums are empty for probably a variety of reasons. so very little atmosphere. Will be in Cardiff for our Euro Challenge game whenever it is!!!

 

[Bluemoon]

From my little experience with Welsh clubs i think the supporters have to get behind the regionals to move them forward, i have been to Cardiff many times for Internationals and whether there are tickets or not available, the whole of Wales is in the Cardiff bars., so why can't they do this at regional level. The changes to pro rugby are enormous but its moved forward and the supporters have to do the same. The old way i loved, but its gone same at Montpellier but this is progress whether you like it or not. Wales have never done much in Europe and not likely too if things stay the same. To have a competitive 3/4 Welsh regional teams would be a tremendous stepping stone for the whole country, but Wales has to get bums on seats for the pro 12 Championship, i still have SC4 in France and the stadiums are empty for probably a variety of reasons. so very little atmosphere. Will be in Cardiff for our Euro Challenge game whenever it is!!!

Cardiff as a city is interesting as there is a huge amount of competition for sport. You have Glamorgan Cricket, Cardiff City Football, Cardiff Devils Ice Hockey, and the Cardiff Blues all trying to attract the floating viewer and all providing a good product. The product is extremely important here as we aren't just a little village, but a very small metropolitan city. The make up of the population here aren't all Welsh rugby supporters. Due to this, the sports fans tend to go to the big occasions. The knock out rounds of competitions or when a team are doing well in a league, or at least when the rugby is attractive!!

There is more acceptance of the current rugby system than you think. What we people often confuse is the moaning about the quality of the rugby, versus the regionalisation. They aren't necessarily the same as the rugby world has changed in terms of resources since the 4 Welsh teams were created.

 

[valley commando]

Valley you big WUM, never won a trophy :lol:. Also, three times the crowd size Cardiff Blues get, or the CRFC? The CRFC fans all support the Cardiff Blues. I very rarely go to the RFC games because we have a professional team that was originally designed to represent Cardiff and the Vale. Don't be so ridiculous in comparing the semi-pro side crowds when the CRFC side is just the development side.

Up to you which Welsh professional team you support, if you decide support any at all. If we're all frank we really don't want you as fans (unless you want to be). However, Cardiff Blues need to develop a widespread player development structure through the area Cardiff Blues have been given the responsibility for. We will never match French and English resources, so player development is important.

Can I bring this back to topic, I'd like to add a 4th point to my original three:

1. I'd like Merthyr and the Cardiff Blues to forge a very, very effective relationship next year.

Course you would you smug t****

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You do realise that Valley Commando is nothing but a massively deluded lying troll?

And your a thick ****

 

[valley commando]

Cardiff as a city is interesting as there is a huge amount of competition for sport. You have Glamorgan Cricket, Cardiff City Football, Cardiff Devils Ice Hockey, and the Cardiff Blues all trying to attract the floating viewer and all providing a good product. The product is extremely important here as we aren't just a little village, but a very small metropolitan city. The make up of the population here aren't all Welsh rugby supporters. Due to this, the sports fans tend to go to the big occasions. The knock out rounds of competitions or when a team are doing well in a league, or at least when the rugby is attractive!!

There is more acceptance of the current rugby system than you think. What we people often confuse is the moaning about the quality of the rugby, versus the regionalisation. They aren't necessarily the same as the rugby world has changed in terms of resources since the 4 Welsh teams were created.

This is the most sensible idea muted by JPR, 2 regions East and West and a competitive league beneath
JPR's quote -:

Lions legend JPR Williams has slammed regional rugby and believes the current system should be reduced to two teams, one in East Wales and one in the west.

Williams is dismissive of the current system and believes there is an apathy towards regional rugby with supporters still pledging their allegiance to the clubs.

Williams believes halving the amount of regional teams will double the quality.

"I think regional rugby has been a disaster, personally," said Williams, who won 55 caps for Wales and was part of two Lions series-winning sides in 1971 and 1974.

"You look at the crowds and people don't want to support the regions, they want to support the clubs.

"I have changed my mind now and believe we should have two regional sides in East and West Wales because you need that step up.

"I have thought long and hard about this. That's what I would like to see but I doubt it will happen.

"Regions were brought in for finance reasons but it's been a financial disaster and you can't keep on pouring money down the drain.

"If you had two regions you would cut everything by half but double the quality.

"Underneath, you would have eight clubs with promotion and relegation to provide competition.

"It would be a step between club and international rugby and we would improve our performances in Europe."

Williams believes the quality of Wales' top stars is masking the domestic problem but fears for the system when the current crop finish their careers.

"We are lucky enough to have a good crop of Welsh players but they are not going to be there forever and we have to bring players through," added Williams.

"A lot of the young players are in the academies but never play.

"The one thing about any sport is if you want to improve, you have to play because training is not the same as being on the field."

The main problem with this would be Peter the Pieman would once again threaten the WRU with court action as he did in the past if he doesnt get his own way.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Course you would you smug t****

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And your a thick ****

Sir can you please calm down, your over reacting alot.

 

[valley commando]

Sir can you please calm down, your over reacting alot.

Point taken, but I would urge you to look at the blogs on the Ponty website, together with other valley clubs and you will see I am far from a lone voice, the majority of rugby people outside of cardiff and Llanelli were against the regions in their current and original format and if anything are even more against them now.
The only way to appease the majority and lets face it get the crowds back would be to have an East and West region as JPR and many with more knowledge than me have discussed, it would upset the 16,500 or so who turn up to watch cardiff and the Scarlets, but would ensure 2 strong representative sides who would capture the imagination of the supporters, bring financial stability and European success.

 

[Amiga500]

How about we all stop saying "not got a clue" "big time city boy" "chip on your shoulder" etc etc.

haha, good luck with that :lol:

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This is the most sensible idea muted by JPR, 2 regions East and West

How's Scotland doing on the international stage with 2 professional teams?

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

haha, good luck with that :lol:

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How's Scotland doing on the international stage with 2 professional teams?

With one team being a champion off the pro 12 and a mid table team, really not that well, But maybe Italy would have still been a better point even though they beat us .But with they're 2 pro teams 11th and 12th in the pro 12 and in the six nations Italy got hammered by Wales at home and England away, really made me feel really bad as Scotland couldn't even beat them.

 

[valley commando]

haha, good luck with that :lol:

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How's Scotland doing on the international stage with 2 professional teams?

There is not any comparison between the Welsh and Scottish domestic game, far more players playing at a better standard in Wales, so not a valid argument

 

[Amiga500]

There is not any comparison between the Welsh and Scottish domestic game, far more players playing at a better standard in Wales, so not a valid argument

Yes, 'cos right now you've four professional teams.

Drop that to two and all of a sudden your depth is wafer thin.



Run through a Scottish 15 you'd name if you were coaching, they aren't too bad on paper.
But, when you start accounting for just a few injuries in there, all of a sudden there are pressure points all over the place.

 

[Jerry Blue]

Yeah and JPR knows it ain't going to happen! They are 4 privately owned clubs not union owned plus Wales has never had regional rugby only club rugby. Cardiff get good crowds when they are successful just like any other team plus doesn't every team buy trophies? Would Toulon be 3 times European champions or the Ospreys 4 times league winners or the Blues be the only welsh team to win a European trophy without spending lots of money? I'm sure Ponty has gained it's trophies by spending lots of money. If you also notice the crowds for the pro teams are big when they play each other and in Europe's top competition but dwindle playing the Irish, Scottish and Italian teams. Change the league so the welsh teams play each other more and then get more crowds.

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Maybe one of the changes for the Blues would be to drop the prices and do student deals as their are a lot of them in Cardiff!

 

[Amiga500]

If you also notice the crowds for the pro teams are big when they play each other and in Europe's top competition but dwindle playing the Irish, Scottish and Italian teams. Change the league so the welsh teams play each other more and then get more crowds.

Ah, dunno if that is sensible. You'd soon get familiarity fatigue from playing the same opposition too frequently.

They are 4 privately owned clubs not union owned plus Wales has never had regional rugby only club rugby.

I think that is the big mistake, as it (a) really stops the WRU from wholly investing in the regions, (b) stops the WRU tweaking the regions placement and (c) the spectators don't see the regions as branches of the WRU but of units more affiliated to the old clubs they evolved out of, with all the rivalries that come with that... which is good - if the rivalry is with another region, bad if within one region.