Gouging incident in the T14 this weekend

[dragos03]

Life ban, no doubt. It's a very obvious gouge and he keeps going for his eyes until the other players come to rescue the victim. One of the worst I've seen.

However, such a vile attack can't happen without considerable provocation. I think the judges should look carefully at Battle's actions before the incident and ban him as well if they find something that led to this attack in retaliation.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

So first off this a completely seperate and vile incident I do think this warrants its own thread and should be discussed.

As to the joking over the NZ incident. Smartcooky said he knew I was joking but still had to go on a diatribe about it anyway.
I do find it sad that you can't joke about two very seperate and different gouging incidents one of which led to extremely lengthy and foul-tempered debate (why was the second thread allowed to go on after it descended into the same nonsense as the first thread?).

You have to realise who I'm making fun of here, I'm not trying to goad certain people, I'm actually making fun of a) those who can't see the difference between these incidents. b) those who think NZ get preferential treatment. The entire point is that's its absurd that anyone think those two things are true. I do this by making a stupid comment and then say what I seriously think afterwards.
It is rather sad we can't talk about a serious topic withou injecting some levity into proceedings.

I agree, you're original comment was clearly a joke and directed at no one in particular. Smartcooky started his reply with "I know you're just kidding, but..." and continued to defend something that didn't need to be defended in regard to any previous comment and was off topic within this thread. Being so sensitive will always bring out some sarcastic comment afterwards.

I'll finish this by saying that Smartcooky's arguments are almost always some of the best researched and well thought out on this forum and is someone who brings a unique and interesting perspective to the forum as well as being our officiating expert but the post I'm talking about was clearly made out of frustration and was needless. It was subsequently blown out of proportion and has derailed one of the more interesting debate we have on these boards right now.

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Life ban, no doubt. It's a very obvious gouge and he keeps going for his eyes until the other players come to rescue the victim. One of the worst I've seen.

However, such a vile attack can't happen without considerable provocation. I think the judges should look carefully at Battle's actions before the incident and ban him as well if they find something that led to this attack in retaliation.

Of course it can happen without provocation. Tempers were flaring in this game but this isolated incident appears to be completely unprovoked to me.

 

[smartcooky]

I agree. And some posts are intended to rile up certain posters, and then when those posters do make a remark, they either go in like a swarm of bees and attack with stingy remarks or revert back to "It was just tongue in cheek" or "I meant it sarcastically" etc.

That is actually typical of trolling and bullying behavior; the bully makes nasty remarks and then later, when it finally dawns on them (or it is pointed out to them) that their remarks have offended people, they jump into their fallback excuses

"Why do you take everything so seriously?
"It was just a joke!"
"You need to lighten up."
"Where's your sense of humour?"
"Oh I was only kidding"

All these statements are typical responses from bullies when called out on their offensive remarks. In dismissing it all as a joke, they are doing two things that are a dead giveaway to bullying:

1. they are showing a complete lack of remorse for the offense they gave caused;
2. they are blaming their target for being offended and daring to object to it.

Having spent a fair part of my working life as a teacher, I can testify that this is exactly how we were instructed to recognize bullying and identify the culprits.

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Anyway, enough of that from me

The more I look at the actions of this player, then more I think that an example needs to be made of him. He went straight for the eyes, and continued to go for them, even fighting against other players trying to pull his arms away. It was a deliberate, wilful, almost frenzied attack on the eye of his opponent.

I'm not sure I would want to have that player anywhere near me if he was in the opposing team. Clearly there are violent and deep seated issues with this player.

 

[ratsapprentice]

That's not trolling.

Please do not conflate trolling with bullying or harassment. Thanks to the media the term has become incredibly distorted and debased.

Borat is a troll.

Death threats and bullying are not trolling.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Don't disagree, and there are obvious instances designed to provoke. But equally many comments ARE made tongue in cheek, and the fact that someone else doesn't read them as such doesn't equate to bullying or trolling or warrant an apology. Misconstruing comments where you don't know the poster or their likely intent is an occupational hazard of participating in forums.

Good point from Dragos03 about whether there had been any previous between the 2 players earlier in the match.

 

[smartcooky]

However, such a vile attack can't happen without considerable provocation. I think the judges should look carefully at Battle's actions before the incident and ban him as well if they find something that led to this attack in retaliation.

Two words.... Richard Loe.

His is one of the dirtiest players ever to disgrace the All Black jersey. Both his elbow slam to the face of Wallaby Paul Carozza, and his eye-gouge on fellow All Black Greg Cooper were completely unprovoked acts of mindless violence. To this day, Greg and his brother Matthew (also a former All Black, and a Sky TV commentator) are not on speaking terms with Loe.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Don't disagree, and there are obvious instances designed to provoke. But equally many comments ARE made tongue in cheek, and the fact that someone else doesn't read them as such doesn't equate to bullying or trolling or warrant an apology. Misconstruing comments where you don't know the poster or their likely intent is an occupational hazard of participating in forums.

There is no Sarcasm font, and unless the poster gives an indication in the post itself, it's very hard at times to distinguish between tongue in cheek comments or real attempts at Bullying.

As you say it is an occupational hazard that is part of forums, and so is your membership to that forum(s). If things are going to escalate to the point where we just have to handle animosity between members, then changes will have to be made.

Many posters on this forum has English as a second or even third language, and might not always catch the jibes being thrown immediately which could result in chaos. So it would be wise of the poster attempting to make a sarcastic comment to rather make every effort available to ensure that it is the message he/she is sending instead of an attempt to cause problems.

 

[ncurd]

I don't think smartcooky is entirely wrong the behaviour of a troll is very similar to harassment/bullying. They both provoke to get a reaction and then downplay their actions after the event.

The difference is a trolling isn't particulary attacking a single indivdual to get a reaction. The intent is to pull the topic off course and descend it to madness, usually by being deliberately inflammartory to a large group of indivdual so they decend on them like a ton of bricks.
Simple example, saying Itoje was playing rubbish during the Wales 6 nations match (don't think this happened but we all know how the reactions would be).

Harassment/Bullying is usually targetted at a specfic indivdual and more importantly is usually done to make them less of themselves as an indivdual through it.



Problem is telling the difference between a troll, a genuine *** and someone who is saying it just as a tounge in cheek/joke is part of the problem of forum culture (mods the poor guys have to work it out). Has been for as long as I've been posting on boards and I think my first account somewhere is circa 2001. Hell its bad enough on facebook between friend when people get riled up.

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As to other indivdual actions to see why the eye gouge happened. Yeah it can be looked especially as this was abad tempered game into but if someone can be provoked into eye gouging they are way more at fault than anything that happened to them. In any circumstance it is a gross overreaction.

What it may do in a life ban is reduce it to a signifciant amount of years or a years ban by a couple of months. But the guy would have had to done something pretty dire himself to warrant any mitigating circumstances.

Simply put the other player must of done on high end of citable offence to even a punch to the face or headbut is unlikely to convince me he should have a reduced sentence for the gouge.

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Side note: It really wouldn't surprise me if serial forum trolls (e.g. Kiwi) were nasty little ****s in real life.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

This thread has some what drifted.

And not in the good pizza way either.


I can understand both sides of the arguments, re trolling or having a larf. As prob one of the more sarcastic users on here (however witty and clever I come across) a lot of my Comments are never designed to troll (as such sometimes I do depending circumstances) or bully as such.

(Although I have never found Smartcooky argumentative but more passionate).


Anyway anyone have an idea on how many weeks in total Top 14 players have been banned for gouging in the last 5 years or so?

 

[saulan]

Does anyone know when a decision will be made on this anyway?

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

One of the thing that gets me about this thread and this forum - is we have some English posters here that wonder why smartcookie is argumentative, that wonder why so many kiwis posters are trolls while the best ones don't continue to post, and wonder why I make an effort not to be super confrontational. And they do so with no introspection. What a f*cking unenjoyable thread. Even among poster I make an effort to follow for their insight.

Are you serious?

 

[ncurd]

Does anyone know when a decision will be made on this anyway?

I can't even find proof he's been cited yet.....

 

[TheSaffycen]

Though it may sound weird I want to talk about the eye gouge....
It's a truly terrible act from a coward. That's all it is, on a par or worse than Clarke's incident. A defenceless player is attacked on the ground and I would want a life time ban. I don't see it as harsh as this guy isn't a rugby player. He's just a thug.


And with the Frank incident, the only reason that should be brought up is to showcase the **** poor consistency from World Rugby.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I can't even find proof he's been cited yet.....

Apparently he has.

http://www.rugbydump.com/2016/09/53...eos,+tackles,+big+hits,+great+tries+and+more)

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Denies it too! ****ing hilarious.

 

[Which Tyler]

Hmmmm - they say maximum ban is 208 weeks. Maybe they'l charge him with disrepute or some catch-all (ungentlemanly conduct?) to increase it to life.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

What happens if a player has, for example 3 more years in a contract and gets banned for life/the remaining time on his contract. Do the club still have to pay him for the rest of the contract?

 

[ncurd]

I don't believe the club has to pay you for any amount of time you serving a ban.

Equivalent of being a lorry driver and getting a driving ban. You've rendered yourself unable to fulfil your contractually obliged duties under the terms and conditions of your employment.

even if it doesn't last the term of his contract they probably could let him go under gross misconduct.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Denies it too! ****ing hilarious.

Suspect we're hearing the voice of his lawyer.

 

[Peat]

On the subject of jokes on the internet.

To a certain extent, whether its seen as a joke or not is not the point. If people hear the same jokes day in, day out, then it gets to people, regardless of intention.

A moment of thought before posting can be worth a lot of arguing later. Not that I want this forum to be humourless - just time and place.

The same goes for continually taking a pop at the same organisations again and again mind.


As for Ugalde denying it - oh dear.

Very comparable with the Attoub incident now mind.