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GOAT - The eternal debate

Le Frére Alpha said:
Agreed. That or Johnny Sexton.
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Interesting.

DC, for me, was GOTE fly half of his era (2005-2015). JW a close second.

Sexton's main era (2016- 2023). Other contenders: Pollard, Barrett, Mo'unga, Farrell. For me Sexton has to win the RWC to cement himself as GOTE. But then Pollard has already won one already and if Boks win 2 in a row under his guidance as fly-half then I think he would defo take GOTE.
 
Bada-Bing! said:
Interesting.

DC, for me, was GOTE fly half of his era (2005-2015). JW a close second.

Sexton's main era (2016- 2023). Other contenders: Pollard, Barrett, Mo'unga, Farrell. For me Sexton has to win the RWC to cement himself as GOTE. But then Pollard has already won one already and if Boks win 2 in a row under his guidance as fly-half then I think he would defo take GOTE.
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That's the thing. Johnny hasn't gone ball deep at a RWC if you pardon the pun. He really needs to get a semi at the very least otherwise he's in the same bracket as Jackson and Madigan.
 
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I was joking DC then Sexton for me. Sexton has only played one QF of a world cup for reasons mostly outside his control (bad coach and injury). Essentially basing his career on one match v the All Blacks in a faltering set up is nuts.
 
Overlap in eras between DC and Sexton. Post DC era Sexton is up against a different set of Fly halves in the GOTE debate IMO. Injury, coaching etc is part and parcel of the sport. His body hasn't held up when it mattered most and under the most pressure. Look at DC and how he pulled his body through the 2015 RWC even though he'd injured his knee. Of course coaching is not in his control, but his position does give him the most control on the field.

And his career will be judged on combo of club and international and not just a the RWC. RWC would be the cherry on the top of an incredible career.

Compare someone like BOD and Conrad Smith. There is an argument BOD is the GOTE of 13s. But he only played in a QFs of RWC and one Lions series win. But CS won two back to back RWCs, one series win v the Lions and formed the best midfield combo of his era with Nonu, in conjunction with his longevity at RG every top. CS the greater 13 of his era for me.
 
Le Frére Alpha said:
I was joking DC then Sexton for me. Sexton has only played one QF of a world cup for reasons mostly outside his control (bad coach and injury). Essentially basing his career on one match v the All Blacks in a faltering set up is nuts.
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I was also joking when I put him in the same bracket as Madigan and Jackson. Johnny, ball deep and semi was just my filthy immature mind in overdrive.
 
Bada-Bing! said:
Overlap in eras between DC and Sexton. Post DC era Sexton is up against a different set of Fly halves in the GOTE debate IMO. Injury, coaching etc is part and parcel of the sport. His body hasn't held up when it mattered most and under the most pressure. Look at DC and how he pulled his body through the 2015 RWC even though he'd injured his knee. Of course coaching is not in his control, but his position does give him the most control on the field.

And his career will be judged on combo of club and international and not just a the RWC. RWC would be the cherry on the top of an incredible career.

Compare someone like BOD and Conrad Smith. There is an argument BOD is the GOTE of 13s. But he only played in a QFs of RWC and one Lions series win. But CS won two back to back RWCs, one series win v the Lions and formed the best midfield combo of his era with Nonu, in conjunction with his longevity at RG every top. CS the greater 13 of his era for me.
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I'm not sure I've seen a better 8 than Sergio Parisse in the 6N and he won next to nothing with Italy at test level. It's difficult to compare players unless the parameters or metrics are the same (and the never are in a team game). Some players get the platform to showcase their abilities more by being surrounded by top players.
 
Bada-Bing! said:
Overlap in eras between DC and Sexton. Post DC era Sexton is up against a different set of Fly halves in the GOTE debate IMO. Injury, coaching etc is part and parcel of the sport. His body hasn't held up when it mattered most and under the most pressure. Look at DC and how he pulled his body through the 2015 RWC even though he'd injured his knee. Of course coaching is not in his control, but his position does give him the most control on the field.

And his career will be judged on combo of club and international and not just a the RWC. RWC would be the cherry on the top of an incredible career.

Compare someone like BOD and Conrad Smith. There is an argument BOD is the GOTE of 13s. But he only played in a QFs of RWC and one Lions series win. But CS won two back to back RWCs, one series win v the Lions and formed the best midfield combo of his era with Nonu, in conjunction with his longevity at RG every top. CS the greater 13 of his era for me.
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I had this debate with @Which Tyler who is very against team achievements when judging a player (we were talking about Russell). I'm somewhere in the middle.

Outside of world cups Sexton is the most decorated 10 to ever play the game after Dan Carter, Wilkinson's claim of being better is his three world cup knockout games in 03, good claim but not enough for me. As for the era it's Sexton v Barrett, Barrett has been at the helm as his team has gone from best in the world with breathing space to as low as 5th. Sexton has taken a team that usually lingered around 5-8 to the best team in the world, twice (2018 and the last 9 months) always as the key player for the team. He's not only the best 10 of the post Carter era, he's the best back and probably the best player although Etzebeth has a shout too.

Smith v BOD isn't a debate as far as I'm concerned, BOD was a better rugby player, Smith was a vital cog in the best team to ever play the game but Smith, Carter, Nonu and a whole host of back three players were just as good or better players than him. He achieved a whole lot of nothing at club level.
 
Le Frére Alpha said:
Smith v BOD isn't a debate as far as I'm concerned, BOD was a better rugby player, Smith was a vital cog in the best team to ever play the game but Smith, Carter, Nonu and a whole host of back three players were just as good or better players than him. He achieved a whole lot of nothing at club level.
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Individually and skill wise I would agree. But we are talking of "Greatness" not most skilful.

I look at 2007 when for some strange reason Henry selected Muiliana at 13 for the RWC. That was a great ABs team which were favourites to win the RWC. Play a proper 13 and ABs win the next two world cups. Still, Smith has 2 World Cup winners medals to show whereas BOD has none.

Club game is important and all and that is one side of the coin to judge a player's Greatness in their era. No doubt Sexton ticks this.

Six nations is equivalent of an annual Euros. But
For me RWC is still the pinnacle of the sport. Can't class Sexton as GOTE if he doesn't steer Ireland to one in his career.
 
Bada-Bing! said:
Individually and skill wise I would agree. But we are talking of "Greatness" not most skilful.

I look at 2007 when for some strange reason Henry selected Muiliana at 13 for the RWC. That was a great ABs team which were favourites to win the RWC. Play a proper 13 and ABs win the next two world cups. Still, Smith has 2 World Cup winners medals to show whereas BOD has none.

Club game is important and all and that is one side of the coin to judge a player's Greatness in their era. No doubt Sexton ticks this.

Six nations is equivalent of an annual Euros. But
For me RWC is still the pinnacle of the sport. Can't class Sexton as GOTE if he doesn't steer Ireland to one in his career.
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I see where you're coming from but I think you're a bit lost in the sauce. "Greatness" - whose name is more recognisable? BOD or Conrad Smith....
 
Le Frére Alpha said:
I see where you're coming from but I think you're a bit lost in the sauce. "Greatness" - whose name is more recognisable? BOD or Conrad Smith....
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In NZ Conrad. In Ireland BOD.

And if we are talking about "Greatness" then I would argue the CV matters. Not winning one diminishes it slightly especially as Ireland are currently number 1 side in the world.

I recall you saying Messi wouldn't be the Greatest of his era unless he won the World Cup. Well he did. Same argument with Sexton.
 
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No player is going to be in contention for GOAT if they aren't also in a great team. If Parisse was Kiwi rather than Italian, I think he'd be in contention more than he is (don't think he is the best 8 ever btw). Even the best player in the world cannot overcome the rest of the team being poor if that's the case.

With Ireland, unless it can be shown the player individually kept failing in world cups or major tournaments, I don't see how team failings can be used against them.
 
Yeah sport is about narrative. And the narrative of GOSTs is they win when it matters most and you don't make excuses. MJ had help and Lebron is still mocked for not being able to carry teams even though he never had a teammate as good as pippin.

Also the best ability is availability.
 
www.bbc.co.uk

Messi

A documentary seeking to provide a detailed understanding of the real Lionel Messi.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

www.bbc.co.uk

Lionel Messi: Destiny

Behind-the-scenes documentary about how Lionel Messi finally won the World Cup.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

The modern day GOTE story now covered over 2 BBC documentaries. Worth a watch. A great story of redemption.
 
Novak in the tennis is heading to be the GOAT of men's tennis. Wins tomorrow and he becomes the only male player to win all 4 slams at least 3 times; overtaking the total record Rafa in his Kingdom and also the tie Serena on 23. Should then tie Court on 24 at Wimbledon and then the holy grail of the Grand slam is on in NYC and with no Olympics to distract him.

Can't say I approved of his Covid antics or his unnecessary Kosovo message but what an absolute beast of a tennis player!
 
Might not like him but surely Djokovic has to be right up there as GOAT - 7th ATP world tour finals win. Defo GOTE in tennis in terms of major ***les and end of year no.1 plus 400 weeks plus there. Just needs the Olympic Gold next year to complete the set.
 

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