Gloucester Thread

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Dave Attwood
Will Spencer
Matt Garvey

All the sources I have seen have Attwood as just under 19 stone and Spencer at like 18 1/2 stone.

Garvey comes across as a beast nearly 20 stone.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Attwood - 123kg
Spencer - 122kg
Garvey - 127kg

 

[TheSaffycen]

I think that Kruis is around the 18+ mark ?
Bath and Glos are going to have some monstrous packs next year !!

 

[j'nuh]

Wikipedia and Gloucester rugby have Stooke down as being 17st 13 (115kgs)

The latest figures (from an interview with Woodman in TRP) are that Stooke is 19 st 10. Stooke was listed as 17 st 13 back from his academy days. Gloucester are pretty bad at updating their website with the latest details. Weights of players seem not to change for years.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The latest figures (from an interview with Woodman in TRP) are that Stooke is 19 st 10. Stooke was listed as 17 st 13 back from his academy days. Gloucester are pretty bad at updating their website with the latest details. Weights of players seem not to change for years.

That goes for all clubs, really.
If you want to find the accurate weight of most players you need to do a bit of digging and bear in mind that if the listing looks wrong - it probably is.

I have no trouble believing that Stooke is 125kg~, he's a big lad with a little bit of "puppy fat" remaining.

 

[Maverick1987]

Leicester have some weight in the second row too . Wiki says Kitchener is 121 kg and slater is 119kg

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'm pretty certain Slater is smaller than that - 116kg.
Kitchener I'm unsure of tbh - every listing I've seen has him at 121/122kg - but he just never seems that big, I'm inclined to believe it though - he's a very good athlete.

 

[Peat]

Permit me to presenting the dissenting opinion.

Kitchener is listed as 6'6". He's about two to three inches short on guys like Retallick and Etzebeth. Allegedly, he is roughly the same weight as Retallick. I feel that one look at each man severely strains the idea that Kitchener is the same weight despite missing out on two and a half inches. If you look at the sort of guys who are around Kitchener's weight, and share the same sort of athletic capability in the air, there's not too many of them over 18 stone, nevermind 19.

Stooke is also listed as 6'6". Woodman reckons he weighs at the same as Etzebeth despite being three inches shorter. Again, my mind baffles.

If we google Joe Tekori, he is allegedly of the same dimensions as Graham Kitchener. Uhm, no. I am struggling to think of a 19' 10 6'6" lock for comparison with Stooke, largely because such things are close to non-existent in the pro game. If these things are true, you have to wonder/worry about a) fat levels b) aerobic ability c) legality of weight gains. I feel reasonably happy in saying they're probably not though.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Permit me to presenting the dissenting opinion.

Kitchener is listed as 6'6". He's about two to three inches short on guys like Retallick and Etzebeth. Allegedly, he is roughly the same weight as Retallick. I feel that one look at each man severely strains the idea that Kitchener is the same weight despite missing out on two and a half inches. If you look at the sort of guys who are around Kitchener's weight, and share the same sort of athletic capability in the air, there's not too many of them over 18 stone, nevermind 19.
.

Etzebeth is 10lbs heavier than Kitchener. according to most sources so I can believe that. And Retallick isn't the hugest looking second rower.

I don't know about Stooke but when I met Kitchener this season he looked bigger than last season. Kitchener is much bigger body wise than the TV can show tbf.

Although Kitchener game isn't his size but his speed.

I'm pretty certain Slater is smaller than that - 116kg.

Yeh they have him down as that on the tigers site,

 

[ratsapprentice]

If we google Joe Tekori, he is allegedly of the same dimensions as Graham Kitchener. Uhm, no. I am struggling to think of a 19' 10 6'6" lock for comparison with Stooke, largely because such things are close to non-existent in the pro game. If these things are true, you have to wonder/worry about a) fat levels b) aerobic ability c) legality of weight gains. I feel reasonably happy in saying they're probably not though.

That's why you don't use wikipedia for player stats - it's ****house.
ERC listed Tekori as 129kg - which is probably about right, if a little under his actual weight.

That's an 8kg difference (at least) - bearing in mind Tekori is carrying a significant amount of fat, and 8kg of fat looks a lot bigger than 8kg of muscle - it looks about right.

I'd agree that Stooke is probably carrying a fair bit of fat on him.

 

[Peat]

I don't feel the possibility of Tekori carrying an extra 8kg over was the central plank of my argument really...

In pretty much any database of locks based on height, weight, style, and so on, Kitchener and Stooke would be major outliers at their current recorded heights. If other people want to believe them, cool. I don't care that much. Me, I feel the balance of probabilities point to an inflated weight measurement. Heavily so, one might say.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't feel the possibility of Tekori carrying an extra 8kg over was the central plank of my argument really...

You were doubting Kitchener being 6'6"/122kg~ based on Joe Tekori supposedly being the same, when he is clearly much bigger than Kitchener.

As I said - I too have doubts about Kitchener being 122, but I don't think it's that wild a figure.
I'd imagine that Stooke probably hovers just over 120kg in season and gets a bit fat during his time off, 125kg seems right to me.
I wouldn't call Stooke an outlier at all, he's not very muscular but he's as wide as a barn door, with bit legs.

If we compare them to Retallick and Etzebeth (as you have):

- Retallick might be a couple of inches taller than they are, but he's not exactly built is he?
- Etzebeth.... he's a couple of inches bigger and quite a bit more muscular than either Stooke or Kitchener. Definitely lower body fat % than either of them too. If Etzebeth carried around as much fat as Stooke he'd easily be over 130kg, I reckon there's at least 5% difference in BF%, and probably 1 or 2% between Eben and Graham which clearly makes a big difference with guys this heavy.

So, I agree Kitchener (if he is 122kg) would be a bit of an outlier - but there are outliers, you'd expect a few freaks in any sport where athleticism is important.

 

[Peat]

The argument was pretty clearly that the huge paucity of other players sharing their alleged dimensions and weight strains credulity to the claims of the gentlemen in question, illustrated by a couple of cases, as I rashly believed I wouldn't have to name too many as literally anyone with a reasonable memory for stats would notice the same thing. That was the central plank - focusing entirely on Tekori was pedantry.

While obviously people at the statistical edge of athleticism are super valuable and highly sought after, it should be stressed just how much of an outlier - nay, freak - Kitchener would be. For a guy to be that speed and that agile in the air, while being 19 stone and 6'6"... anyone think of 3 other guys like that? Here's a database to help people, it's reasonably accurate. I'd give Samu Manoa which brings me to my next point about Kitchener being that sort of freak. When a guy is that big and that quick, you can tell. It's pretty obvious. Manoa is clearly that sort of freak. Kitchener? Kitchener should be one of England's best ball carriers if he's 19 stone. He's not though. The overall picture of Kitchener based on players we can physically compare him to, how we see him play and his alleged physical statistics simply doesn't make sense.

As for Stooke - I'll buy the idea that he'll be 19 stone come game time. That's pretty plausible.

 

[ratsapprentice]

My point on Tekori is that saying he's 122kg~ is wildly inaccurate - if Tekori is who you have in mind for a tall guy who weighs that much then its not surprising that you don't think Kitchener weighs that much.

Judging the supposed figures on my own experience of knowing people who weight that much IRL and other guys in professional rugby, I don't find it very difficult to believe that Kitchener weighs something approaching 19st... 6'6" is massive.
Samu Manoa is 6'4".

Joe Launchbury and Matt Garvey are two guys who you could compare him to - both are 6'6".
Joe isn't very muscular and is a bit fat, weighing 115kg
Garvey is quite muscular and a bit fat, weighing 127kg.
Kitchener is reasonably muscular and quite lean - does he have 5kg over Launchbury?... quite comfortably IMO.

Kitchener is a pretty good ball carrier - but since when does athleticism correlate perfectly with rugby aptitude?
It doesn't matter how big and quick he is if he doesn't know how to turn that into a dominant carry.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

When a guy is that big and that quick, you can tell. It's pretty obvious. Manoa is clearly that sort of freak. Kitchener? Kitchener should be one of England's best ball carriers if he's 19 stone. He's not though. The overall picture of Kitchener based on players we can physically compare him to, how we see him play and his alleged physical statistics simply doesn't make sense.

When he plays for Leicester he is one of the primary/best forward runners we have. IMO he will overtake Parling this or next season and once that happens he will be up there in the England set-up.

He is a brilliant ball carrier when he plays.

Mind you one of our new signings nu8, Laurence Pearce is down as 127KG (19.9 stone) in some places and is 6ft 3, which according to some Rotherham ***ans fans he certainly looks like it I haven't met him yet so cant really comment, he was a former league player and is meant to have some pace about him will be interesting to see how he goes, he is rated higher than Dickinson @ Saints was at Rotherham so at only 23 has a great chance if it works out.

 

[j'nuh]

Just me, or is Ben Morgan getting too fit for an 8 these days?

I bet at least one commentator will question his ability to play a full 80 this season.

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/late...shers-mission-to-put-gloucester-at-top-table/

I like Laurie - could be a great fit, I think.

 

[lynam1104]

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/late...shers-mission-to-put-gloucester-at-top-table/

I like Laurie - could be a great fit, I think.

That man was not mean to wear a suit.

 

[Patchey]

Just me, or is Ben Morgan getting too fit for an 8 these days?

I bet at least one commentator will question his ability to play a full 80 this season.

I think that is one of the safest bets ever made. Stuart Barnes the first time he commentates on a Glos game / Autumn International. Something like, 'Interesting to see Ben Morgan start, we all know he struggles to play a full eighty minutes so perhaps *insert coach name* should have used him in his more natural role as an impact sub'.

 

[j'nuh]

Haven't been able to watch many Glos games so far, have not had internet for a while.

But what I have seen, is that this is a very slow rebuilding process, with a lot of worries but some real positives.

On paper, Laidlaw-Hook-Twelvetrees is one of, if not the most exciting 9-10-12 combo in the league. And yet it's not playing out that way. Hook is facing a lot of criticism and some calls for him to move into the centres/fullback, whereas Twelvetrees has arguably been even worse and Atkinson is looking like he'll be very stiff competition. Laidlaw has been good so far and is needed for his goal kicking, but Robson has been playing even better. Glos are also struggling at fullback. Cook is not really a top 6 fullback. Makes you wonder if you kill three birds with one stone: move Hook to fullback. Gives us a quality player at 15, allows Laidlaw to come in at 10 and provide a goal kicking option and allows us to keep Robson on the field.

The most encouraging details are in the front row. Afoa has been absolutely crucial and is definitely the first name on the team sheet. Scrum looks so much steadier whenever he is on the field. Hibbard looks good in the loose and just needs to sort out the set piece. Still haven't seen his best. Lutui may be the shrewdest signing Gloucester have made over the summer - have been very impressed with his performances. And Yann and Dan have really stepped up this season, maybe in part because of the improvement of the front row elsewhere. Glos do struggle when Afoa comes off it seems. We will have to be clever at how we manage him.

I've heard good things about Morgan and Kvesic in the previous couple of rounds, but haven't been able to watch anything other than highlights. Also, May is looking rather dangerous.