Get your bets in for the All Black Squad for the june tests

[Black_Magic]

I think experience is one of the most important factors when considering a test squad. Surely the All Blacks won't be named basing only on their current SuperRugby form. On the other hand, you have to start including new faces at some point.
So who do you think should get their first caps for the ABs this summer?

My two choices are: Brodie Retallick, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees him as a new All Black, maybe even making the starting lineup; and Andre Taylor, perhaps not yet a starter, but high-impact no. 22.

Any other ideas who could actually run onto the field in the summer, not just be a member of a wider 30-or-so squad? Barrett? Aaron Smith? Maitland? Tom Taylor? Fruean?

I'll do my amateur analysis based on comparing who we had (in most matches, especially deciding) during RWC2011 with who is available and in-form now.

Front row:
RWC2011: Woodcock, Mealamu, O. Franks + Hore & B. Franks on the bench
2012: Not too much to change here: Woodcock is really the only bright spot for the Blues, though not playing too much so far, Franks bro's are versatile and experienced. Jamie Mackintosh could add to his single cap, he's still quite young and the Highlanders pack has been solid this year. Crockett has been somewhat inconsistent so far in my opinion. As many mentioned before, hooker is one position where ABs are not as deep as we all would have liked to. Mealamu & Hore still look set as main options, though worryingly ageing. Flynn is 2 years younger than Mealamu and 3 years younger than Hore, and has played quite well in SR so far. Rutledge is also an option, but even older than others. So maybe Elliot? He's really the only young option for a hooker in my opinion (Coles needs to sort out his aggression first).

Locks:
RWC2011: Thorn & Whitelock + Ali Williams on the bench
2012: Here we need a significant change as Thorn is gone. Whitelock is guaranteed a starter position I think, the question is his second row companion. Williams hasn't looked too good so far, as the rest of the Blues, but his experience may be invaluable. As I mentioned earlier, Brodie Retallick should get his chance, he's been outstanding and with his strength and tireless tackling and ball-carrying he can well become a long-term replacement for Thorn. Hoeata hasn't impressed so far, while Boric is out injured. I think Thrush, Eaton, Bekhuis and Clarke are quite solid right now, but possibly not enough to get a call. Pity that Croswell is injured as he had an awesome start of the season.

Back row:
RWC2011: Kaino, McCaw, Read + Thomson on the bench
2012: Lots of options for these very important positions. Kaino is unfortunately out (best player in the world in 2011 in my opinion), so the main task is to find his replacement. Vito and Thomson sound as two best possibilities here, both performing very well in SR so far, both very good ball-carriers and useful in lineouts. Messam could be an option too. McCaw is the unquestionable no. 7 once he's fully fit - and that is still a concern as he hasn't really played so far (those few minutes against Waratahs are much too little, we'll have to wait till next round to really see what's up). Matt Todd is the leading tackler of all SuperRugby so far and he really can get a call. I don't see any of the Braids or Whitelocks in the squad, most likely of them being Luke Braid. Read will be the main no. 8 without a doubt, and with Thomson and Vito capable of playing there as well, this position looks well set. Nasi Manu deserves to get his chance too, he's been outstanding so far this season. Hardie started great and it's a pity he won't come back this season.

Half-back:
RWC2011: Weepu + Ellis/Cowan on the bench
2012: Plenty of new talent at half-back. I won't go into well-publicized subject of Weepu's fitness, I'll just say that if he doesn't step up two levels, he's unlikely to play any important role for the All Blacks this year, which is a great shame (he's one of my favourite players). Right now Ellis and Aaron Smith look to be two best no. 9's available, with Ellis' experience prevailing, but Cowan surely made a statement in his last game against Cheetahs. Perenara, Kerr-Barlow, Pulu, Mathewson - lots of new exciting players in the mix.

1st 5/8:
RWC2011: quite complex as everyone recalls
2012: Carter hasn't played as no. 10 so far, but he'll still be no. 1 option for no. 10 for the All Blacks (which is pretty obvious considering he's probably the best 1st 5/8 in history). That said, I actually think Cruden may well start some games, he's shown last year he can stand up on the biggest occasion and this year he's been truly outstanding, best 1st 5/8 in the competition in my opinion, maybe on terms with Cheetahs' Goosen. Actually it could be really interesting to see Cruden as no. 10 playing together with DC at 12. Of all the young halves emerging this season, Barrett seems to be the most likely to get his first cap with Tom Taylor not far behind, ability to play 2nd 5/8 a big advantage in his case. Anscombe has somewhat slowed down and my dark horse would be Sopoaga, but unfortunately he adds to a long list of Highlanders with long-term injuries.

Centre:
RWC2011: Nonu & Smith + SBW on the bench
2012: The almost unbreakable pair of Nonu & Smith look to be in danger this year with Nonu clearly not at his best and lots of centres showing good qualities in SR matches. Kahui's versatility made his spend lots of time at wing (where he was awesome during RWC), but with Sonny Bill Williams showing his magic and possibly being the best no. 12 right now, maybe it could be good to start an all-Chiefs centre pairing? Fruean, Bateman and especially Tamati Ellison have all been playing very well this season, and with DC or Tom Taylor ticking all the boxes to play at 2nd 5/8, there is no lack of talent at centre.

Outside backs:
RWC2011: Kahui, Jane, Dagg
2012: I've been impressed with the way Hosea Gear has been playing so far, and I think the All Blacks could make a good use of a genuine powerful winger he is. With Kahui possibly back at centre (though still providing an option for wing) there can even be a chance for Gear to become a starter. Guildford is another typical winger, hasn't really made a statement in his ABs matches (four tries against Canada can't really be a benchmark), but I think he needs more experience to add more value to the team. Jane is one solid asset with an option to cover fullback as well. Basing on their current SR form, Maitland and Savea deserve to get a chance and there's a number of others not too far behind them: Masaga, Poki, Nanai-Williams to name a few. Dagg is the best fullback in the world in my opinion, but I find Andre Taylor to be the biggest find of the 2012 season so far. He's scoring tries at will and is making opposite defences look like dummies. He should definitely get an All Black cap this summer. Robinson looked very well at the beginning of the season, despite slowing down a bit recently he might still be considered. Slade is another Highlander out for the season, which is a pity as he showed some decent play in his first matches, and maybe could be a better options for the All Blacks at 15 as he hasn't quite handled the pressure when playing as 1st 5/8 in the past.


So my match 22 (of course assuming no injury and fitness issues):
1. Tony Woodcock
2. Keven Mealamu
3. Owen Franks
4. Brodie Retallick
5. Sam Whitelock
6. Adam Thomson
7. Richie McCaw
8. Kieran Read
9. Andy Ellis
10. Daniel Carter
11. Hosea Gear
12. Sonny Bill Williams
13. Richard Kahui
14. Cory Jane
15. Israel Dagg

16. Corey Flynn
17. Jamie Mackintosh
18. Ali Williams
19. Victor Vito
20. Aaron Smith
21. Aaron Cruden
22. Andre Taylor

So the changes compared to RWC final is Retallick for Thorn, Thomson for Kaino, Ellis for Weepu, Gear at wing and the biggest change at centre pairing. Two new All Blacks on the bench, so only three uncapped players in total. I think the back line is extremely versatile with basically everyone able to play multiple positions.

Rounding up the 32-player squad:
Ben Franks
Hika Elliot
Andrew Hore
Jeremy Thrush
Matt Todd
Jimmy Cowan
Beauden Barrett
Tom Taylor
Ma'a Nonu
Conrad Smith

Comments appreciated!

 

[Larksea]

Good write up, few points

The prop spot that Afoa Vacated was for someone who can play both sides, IMO I think that puts Charlie Faumuina and Ben May right in the running. There is usually only room for one spec loosehead in the squad.

locks: agree, though hope Boric comes back in time for selection, Ali isn't at his best right now but locks are very thin on experience without him.

Loose forwards: Agree, personally I see Messam as the best option to Replace Kaino and the game he is playing this year seems a lot like what Kaino does He's bulked up a bit, more so than Thomson who though good to watch is too lose IMO and he did play a major role in the All Blacks two losses last year plus if anything the last couple of years have proved that Thomson shouldn't be considered as 7 or 8 cover for the All Blacks - that experiment has failed constantly - even at super level. I'd also seriously consider playing McCaw at 6 and Todd at 7 in an effort to streatch McCaw's carrier out to 2015 and inject some young Blood into the loosies. Also it may not be a likely selection but Latimer is in the best form of his life and seems to be getting better each week - if anything he just needs his name in the mix because his form demands it. The fact he keeps Waldrum out of the entire chiefs game day 22 is impressive enough. Sam Cane may not be selected this year but he doesn't look far off. Still young enough to qualify for under 20's he looks of rare quality. I've never seen anyone Tackle and Drive Back Jerome kaino like Cane did this season (chiefs vs. Blues game). The one thing that Cane may have an edge with is that Ian Foster has had him under his wing for a few years now to secure him as a chiefs player and develop is game - it likely doesn't mean anything in terms of AB selection but you never know.

9: I think weepu will be picked with Aaron Smith and Elis. Behind them I'd have Leonard in the Mix too. He was brilliant in the first game of the season when he was injured and looked good last weekend, I bet he has a big month before the side is named on June 3 and his former coach is one of the selectors.

10, Carter/Cruden is pretty much 100% - I am a huge fan of Barrett but he is round the top of the list when it comes to missed tackles this season. I don't think he's a bad defender but I think he needs another year to adjust to top level rugby with the big boys. Tom Taylor is very impressive, if anything he's jumped the queue ahead of the likes of Slade, Anscombe, tyler bleyendaal and even Barrett too since he seems totally solid on defense. Honestly to me Taylor looks like future All Black material and has done since ITM cup last year.

midfield: Agree totally but I think smith has done enough to retain his spot at 13, Kahui is too good to just have as a backup though and should start at 11.

outside backs: Auto selection fo Dagg and Jane. I don't see Masanga, Nanai williams or Robinson as genuine options yet but I guess they are in the mix with a month to go. I would look to Drop Gear for some new young blood but Gear is playing too well, I guess he demands selection - Maybe at the expense of Guildford? Shame because Guildford has youth on his side compared to Gear, by 2015 Zac should still be in his prime but Gear may be past it? If anything Ben Smith is the one who is really putting his hand up, I can't even see his name in your post. Ben Smith has been Mind blowing good this season and should be mentioned in the same breath as Andre Taylor, I think they are the Two Front Runners to take over From Toeava and on form in 2012 they are both ahead of Dagg maybe both should make the squad. Ben Smith does have the advantage of being able to play anywhere 12 to 15 and prob has the highest workrate of them all.

kahui, Dagg, Jane I think was clear the best back three in 2011 and it would be a good place for the All Blacks to start. All Three have an element of the "big game player" about them. Like test footy is where they are at their best... Compared to the likes of Gear and maybe Guildford too who have been found wanting in the big games.

 

[lucky number 7]

how many whitelocks are there floating around the Crusaders then?

 

[Larksea]

how many whitelocks are there floating around the Crusaders then?

4

I think they are all bloody good too. Sam is obviously world class, George would have gotten more test caps if he wasn't stuck behind McCaw, Adam is underrated but does a great job covering the crusaders back line when there is an injury in pretty much any position - I think he should move and get a start somewhere else - blues could use someone like him. Luke has a big future but will need to move to get more gametime. Though he's impressed me and wouldn't be long till he's the crusaders main 6 ahead of his brother.

 

[nickdnz]

4

I think they are all bloody good too. Sam is obviously world class, George would have gotten more test caps if he wasn't stuck behind McCaw, Adam is underrated but does a great job covering the crusaders back line when there is an injury in pretty much any position - I think he should move and get a start somewhere else - blues could use someone like him. Luke has a big future but will need to move to get more gametime. Though he's impressed me and wouldn't be long till he's the crusaders main 6 ahead of his brother.

Disagree. He's an average centre and an extremely slow winger. Not a fan of him to be honest and I doubt he'd get a bench spot in any of the other franchises other than the Crusaders, who have a crap load of Whitelocks to please. Interesting people are loving Gear this season. He's playing well, but I feel he did better for the Hurricanes in previous seasons (although he has been very very solid in all aspects of his game, not just his ball running). I'd be delighted to see Gear get a starting spot, he's certainly earned it in my mind. But I also agree that young guns are the way to go.

On Ali Williams, saying the All Blacks need him for experience winds me up. What's his experience done for the Blues this year? Okay, the All Blacks don't have many test proven locks this year, but that doesn't mean selecting a guy who's been rubbish since coming back, and putting him in the All Blacks. He's just not good enough anymore. His handling is poor, his lineout calling has been dire, his positional play sees him on the wing as much as in a ruck. He's average and getting older. Best to let other locks have their time.

 

[Black_Magic]

Good write up, few points

Thanks

If anything Ben Smith is the one who is really putting his hand up, I can't even see his name in your post. Ben Smith has been Mind blowing good this season and should be mentioned in the same breath as Andre Taylor, I think they are the Two Front Runners to take over From Toeava and on form in 2012 they are both ahead of Dagg maybe both should make the squad. Ben Smith does have the advantage of being able to play anywhere 12 to 15 and prob has the highest workrate of them all.

You're right, I should've mentioned him too. I still put Taylor ahead of him at fullback, but you make a good point about versatility.

kahui, Dagg, Jane I think was clear the best back three in 2011 and it would be a good place for the All Blacks to start. All Three have an element of the "big game player" about them. Like test footy is where they are at their best...

And that is one key factor, about which we cannot say anything when it comes to uncapped players. And as you said, some players excel in test rugby, while others don't live up to their expectations set by SR games. No other way to know it than to let them have a chance

 

[donmcdazzle]

Disagree. He's an average centre and an extremely slow winger. Not a fan of him to be honest and I doubt he'd get a bench spot in any of the other franchises other than the Crusaders, who have a crap load of Whitelocks to please. Interesting people are loving Gear this season. He's playing well, but I feel he did better for the Hurricanes in previous seasons (although he has been very very solid in all aspects of his game, not just his ball running). I'd be delighted to see Gear get a starting spot, he's certainly earned it in my mind. But I also agree that young guns are the way to go.

On Ali Williams, saying the All Blacks need him for experience winds me up. What's his experience done for the Blues this year? Okay, the All Blacks don't have many test proven locks this year, but that doesn't mean selecting a guy who's been rubbish since coming back, and putting him in the All Blacks. He's just not good enough anymore. His handling is poor, his lineout calling has been dire, his positional play sees him on the wing as much as in a ruck. He's average and getting older. Best to let other locks have their time.

Never a truer word spoken about Adam Whitelock, he is very lucky to have played that many seasons in Super Rugby, any other franchise I don't think he would have ever made a squad. If it was 2001 he would have probably made the AB's though when the likes of Caleb Ralph and Mark Robinson (the centre) were getting in the canter-blacks.

Agree on Ali Williams as well, he has been awful. Tom Donnelly has had a few AB tests and is playing regularly with all the Crusader AB's he would be fine to have while Retallick gets up to speed. I'd even have Craig Clarke ahead of Williams at this point, been round a while and just does the hard yards unlike seagull Williams. Hoeata hasn't been flash but he will prbably come right as the season goes on.

 

[Larksea]

IMO Adam is under rated, when ever he comes into the Crusaders back line maybe yes they do lose a bit of x-factor but he hardly puts a foot wrong he has good basic skill. Pretty solid all round and the try he just scored shows that he can finish and use his size when close to the line.

Sure he's no star and he's no All Black but he's a good solid option and fits in well when ever he's needed. I'd rather have him on the wing/center than some others that have been around in NZ super rugby over the last few years that may have more x-factor but also make a lot more mistakes and lack some of the Basic Skills and ball retention.

Edit: for example I would have had him in the chiefs backline ahead of Dywane Sweaney last year every bloody week, or Callum Bruce or some of the highlanders backs over the last few years

Williams seems to be working very hard at the blues and getting no-where, the blues lineout has been pretty bad he should have some of the blame but it's not all his fault. A lot of it is coaching - from what I saw Ali isn't calling them and the throwing has been bad.

I think if Boric wasn't injured maybe there wouldn't be room for Williams. But without him test experience is very thin. I don't believe he would be as bad for the AB's. He has stepped up for the AB's in the past. Also the one thing the Blues are doing well is scrumming and I think Ali has been a big part of that.

I'd like to think Donnelly could do the job like he did in 09-10 but he's only looked average as part of the Crusaders pack? I'd imagine if Williams was part of that crusaders pack again he would be a shoe in for the AB's.

 

[William18]

Little to change from the World Cup winning team. The changes will kick on after 2012. Could have issues in some positions though.. hooker and secondrow.

15 Dagg
14 Jane
13 Smith
12 Sonny Bill
11 Kahui
10 Carter
9 Ellis
8 Read
7 McCaw
6 Vito
5 Whitelock
4 Donnelly
3 Franks
2 Mealamu
1 Woodcock

And please call back Donald as he is utter crap for Bath.

Almost agree completely except I would keep Nonu in there ahead of SBW. My worry is that some fans are trying to prematurely get rid of players who have hit 30. Guys like Jane and Nonu were excellent last year so they have to be picked this year. If their form starts to drop off for the All Blacks then you cut them loose. You don't just get rid of established players because you think they are too old when their last performances show that they are still up to it.

 

[Larksea]

I don't think it's a matter of Nonu getting too old it's more a case of Sonny Bill being the best 12 in all super rugby. I think there was Rice paper between them last year but SBW has lifted his game to another level again this year. People want to leave him out because of the boxing and the one year contracts but the fact his he is the best 12 around and he's great for NZ rugby.

 

[admartian]

Disagree. He's an average centre and an extremely slow winger. Not a fan of him to be honest and I doubt he'd get a bench spot in any of the other franchises other than the Crusaders, who have a crap load of Whitelocks to please. Interesting people are loving Gear this season. He's playing well, but I feel he did better for the Hurricanes in previous seasons (although he has been very very solid in all aspects of his game, not just his ball running). I'd be delighted to see Gear get a starting spot, he's certainly earned it in my mind. But I also agree that young guns are the way to go.

On Ali Williams, saying the All Blacks need him for experience winds me up. What's his experience done for the Blues this year? Okay, the All Blacks don't have many test proven locks this year, but that doesn't mean selecting a guy who's been rubbish since coming back, and putting him in the All Blacks. He's just not good enough anymore. His handling is poor, his lineout calling has been dire, his positional play sees him on the wing as much as in a ruck. He's average and getting older. Best to let other locks have their time.

I agree.

I think Donnelly or Retalick should be picked instead.

And as big a fan I am of Weepu, someone like Smith or Mathewson or even Kerr-Barlow should be picked ahead of him.

I don't think it's a matter of Nonu getting too old it's more a case of Sonny Bill being the best 12 in all super rugby. I think there was Rice paper between them last year but SBW has lifted his game to another level again this year. People want to leave him out because of the boxing and the one year contracts but the fact his he is the best 12 around and he's great for NZ rugby.

Meh, in well-run organisations such as the NFL, punks are usually not selected because there are too many distractions.

So it's completely valid to leave him out.

He's talented, but I wouldn't take that talent on board considering there are equally as talented players (i.e. Fruean) probably even more-so than him.

Not to mention that his play has probably been overhyped anyway just because he's SBW.

 

[Larksea]

SBW's play doesn't get hyped overrated because he's SBW. Most people just ignore his play and write him because he is SBW.

The fact is for all the hate and tall poppy crap NZ throw in his direction hes been getting better and better at a staggering rate since he switched to rugby and this year he is clear the best 12 in NZ. And he's played a massive part in the chiefs rise this year.

Fruen's great tallent but I dont see him as a serious option unless he fixes his defense, he looks so lost at times, even with brilliant defenders inside him like Carter and Crotty who is one of the best defenders around - he's not up to All Black standard in that area.

 

[Aedaphon]

SBW's play doesn't get hyped overrated because he's SBW. Most people just ignore his play and write him because he is SBW.

The fact is for all the hate and tall poppy crap NZ throw in his direction hes been getting better and better at a staggering rate since he switched to rugby and this year he is clear the best 12 in NZ. And he's played a massive part in the chiefs rise this year.

Fruen's great tallent but I dont see him as a serious option unless he fixes his defense, he looks so lost at times, even with brilliant defenders inside him like Carter and Crotty who is one of the best defenders around - he's not up to All Black standard in that area.

Completely agreed with SBW- as much as his non-union antics can be frowned upon, there's no denying he's outplayed Nonu (his direct competition for 12) all season. Unless another 10 has impressed so much that Carter could start at 12 I can't see anyone but SBW in the shirt.

In response to your point about Fruean's defence, any reason not to cap him at wing? He wouldn't be the first centre to gain their first international caps on the wing and he is undeniably devastating in attack.

 

[Larksea]

i personally think if he's not good enough on defense in mid field then he's also not good enough to defend on the wing. Wing is a critical position in terms of defense and even requires a greater skill set in terms of the turn and chase and taking high ball as well as kick chase. if that wasn't true then why did Kahui get selected at 11 ahead of every other winger in NZ? Though he's no slug he Doesn't have the power of Gear or the Step of Sivivatu. But what he did have is faultless defense and a head for big games.

I think it would be a bad move to take someone like that out and put a guy in that sure will blow away a lesser team and help blow out scorelines but in a Must win game against a top 5 team who would you rather have?

 

[admartian]

SBW's play doesn't get hyped overrated because he's SBW. Most people just ignore his play and write him because he is SBW.

The fact is for all the hate and tall poppy crap NZ throw in his direction hes been getting better and better at a staggering rate since he switched to rugby and this year he is clear the best 12 in NZ. And he's played a massive part in the chiefs rise this year.

Fruen's great tallent but I dont see him as a serious option unless he fixes his defense, he looks so lost at times, even with brilliant defenders inside him like Carter and Crotty who is one of the best defenders around - he's not up to All Black standard in that area.

Not really hard to outplay Nonu with his current form though is it? :lol:

Don't blame tall poppy, because it's a red-herring. No one has a problem with other successful NZ athletes, but when it's SBW, it's tall poppy!!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!???!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!??!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?

Agree to disagree on the attention whore that is SBW.

 

[nickdnz]

Not really hard to outplay Nonu with his current form though is it? :lol:

Don't blame tall poppy, because it's a red-herring. No one has a problem with other successful NZ athletes, but when it's SBW, it's tall poppy!!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!???!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!??!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?

Agree to disagree on the attention whore that is SBW.

THIS.

It always annoys me when you say you think SBW is overrated and someone calls "Tall Poppy!". No. I love Carter, McCaw, Cullen, Umaga, Lomu, Thorn, Woodcock, Hayman, Gear etc, it'd be very hard to enjoy rugby if I was seriously annoyed by people achieving higher honors.

What annoys me about Sonny Bill Williams and more to the point, the NZRU, is that they reward and endorse signing one player on a very lucritive, specialized short term contract, in which all kinds of allowances are made and success is pretty much guarenteed, while treating other players whom are more loyal and looking for a long term future as an All Black, with far less consideration. From any company point of view, loyalty should be priority, and I don't think Sonny Bill Williams has that at all.

In terms of him not being over hyped, listen to a single game in which he is in. He'll be talked about before every match, he'll be mentioned and talked about every time he touches the ball and if a try is scored, commentators will talk about what he did in the build up to the try. They'll talk about how every match he played he's improved etc, etc, etc. Not even Daniel Carter or Richie McCaw get even half the hype, and they're both considerably better players. I genuinely thought he looked better for the Crusaders last season, at least in terms of the offensive contributions he made (and Fruean looked better outside him than Kahui, just because of style of play). I think his defense has been very good this season, but I think the Chiefs attack pretty much can be attributed almost entirely to Aaron Cruden.

 

[admartian]

THIS.

It always annoys me when you say you think SBW is overrated and someone calls "Tall Poppy!". No. I love Carter, McCaw, Cullen, Umaga, Lomu, Thorn, Woodcock, Hayman, Gear etc, it'd be very hard to enjoy rugby if I was seriously annoyed by people achieving higher honors.

What annoys me about Sonny Bill Williams and more to the point, the NZRU, is that they reward and endorse signing one player on a very lucritive, specialized short term contract, in which all kinds of allowances are made and success is pretty much guarenteed, while treating other players whom are more loyal and looking for a long term future as an All Black, with far less consideration. From any company point of view, loyalty should be priority, and I don't think Sonny Bill Williams has that at all.

In terms of him not being over hyped, listen to a single game in which he is in. He'll be talked about before every match, he'll be mentioned and talked about every time he touches the ball and if a try is scored, commentators will talk about what he did in the build up to the try. They'll talk about how every match he played he's improved etc, etc, etc. Not even Daniel Carter or Richie McCaw get even half the hype, and they're both considerably better players. I genuinely thought he looked better for the Crusaders last season, at least in terms of the offensive contributions he made (and Fruean looked better outside him than Kahui, just because of style of play). I think his defense has been very good this season, but I think the Chiefs attack pretty much can be attributed almost entirely to Aaron Cruden.

Completely agree.

It isn't blindly that all this 'hate' (I wouldn't call it hate but it's the first thing that comes to my mind right now ) for SBW comes from. It is a bit of a 'wtf' moment even before he plays the game, taht commentators have arms firmly wrapped around his nethers (nut-huggers).

 

[Larksea]

it is tall poppy, because even though yes those players are great they were conservative in their carriers and as good as they are they are still all part of the group of many, SBW stands out (like a tall poppy) in or aside that group because he wants more from his carrier and he's not afraid to say it, he wants to achieve in more than one sport... three in fact - and people resent that and cut him down.

man read your last paragraph again, it's tall poppy. It's not sonny bills fault the media give him so much attention. But face it, he's one of the best players in the world, he's got one one of the best physiques in world sport, the girls (and some guys) love him.

You don't honestly expect the media to give him the same attention as someone like Andrew Hore or Woodcock do you?

me? I don't have his poster on my wall and I don't get his fights on pay per view, I don't read the news articles every time he gets a new girlfriend or a haircut. I don't follow him on twitter. I'm fine with the fact he's not signed for next season heck he's not the only one, there is just more speculation around where he's going because of who he is. Nonu's off contract and will be fielding contract offers from all over the world as well. I just tune in every week and watch the chiefs play and he's clearly brilliant in that side and has a massive influence.

One of the main reasons I really like SBW as a player over Nonu. Watch footage of Nonu playing he does this all the time and I'm talking a LOT of the time. Nonu will make a tackle then he gets up slowley, sometimes walks around or just stands on the spot shouts points and eventually ambles back into the defensive line, even in big games he does this. When SBW makes a tackle he gets up like a flash and sprints back into the defense so fast it's not uncommon for him to make 2 or three tackles in as many phases on defense. and he does it almost every single time! The guy is as good as he is because he works his fricken arse off on and off the field. And I really respect that.

Heck I often wonder how good Nonu or Weepu would be if they worked as hard on and off the field as SBW does. heck I think they would both have close to 100 caps and be seen as players on the same level as McCaw and Carter. And we would probably have won the last two world cups. And the hurricanes would have won some super ***les. I say that and I honestly dont think it's an exaggeration. Nonu and Weepu are clearly two of the most talented players NZ rugby has ever seen but they both will ultimately go down as players who failed to reach their potential - it' been good to see Nonu pull his head out over the last few years to some extent and achieve "some" of that potential. More than weepu who I now think will never learn. Heck Weepu has been in and out of the All Blacks since 2004, I think he has more talent than anyone else that has worn the 9 jersey for the all blacks in that time yet he's only had ~55 test caps?

 

[Larksea]

on another note, if you were wondering if Brodie Retalick was the real deal or not apparently he has beaten the record Brad Thorn set on the shuttle fittness test teams do (like the beet test).

Great How NZ rugby produces players just when they are needed. Thorn goes and Ali Williams nears the twilight of his carrier and we Get Sam Whitelock and Brodie Retalick. I know he's no all black yet but the impact he's had so far I think is even more than when Sam hit the scene.

 

[admartian]

it is tall poppy, because even though yes those players are great they were conservative in their carriers and as good as they are they are still all part of the group of many, SBW stands out (like a tall poppy) in or aside that group because he wants more from his carrier and he's not afraid to say it, he wants to achieve in more than one sport... three in fact - and people resent that and cut him down.

man read your last paragraph again, it's tall poppy. It's not sonny bills fault the media give him so much attention. But face it, he's one of the best players in the world, he's got one one of the best physiques in world sport, the girls (and some guys) love him.

You don't honestly expect the media to give him the same attention as someone like Andrew Hore or Woodcock do you?

me? I don't have his poster on my wall and I don't get his fights on pay per view, I don't read the news articles every time he gets a new girlfriend or a haircut. I don't follow him on twitter. I'm fine with the fact he's not signed for next season heck he's not the only one, there is just more speculation around where he's going because of who he is. Nonu's off contract and will be fielding contract offers from all over the world as well. I just tune in every week and watch the chiefs play and he's clearly brilliant in that side and has a massive influence.

One of the main reasons I really like SBW as a player over Nonu. Watch footage of Nonu playing he does this all the time and I'm talking a LOT of the time. Nonu will make a tackle then he gets up slowley, sometimes walks around or just stands on the spot shouts points and eventually ambles back into the defensive line, even in big games he does this. When SBW makes a tackle he gets up like a flash and sprints back into the defense so fast it's not uncommon for him to make 2 or three tackles in as many phases on defense. and he does it almost every single time! The guy is as good as he is because he works his fricken arse off on and off the field. And I really respect that.

Heck I often wonder how good Nonu or Weepu would be if they worked as hard on and off the field as SBW does. heck I think they would both have close to 100 caps and be seen as players on the same level as McCaw and Carter. And we would probably have won the last two world cups. And the hurricanes would have won some super ***les. I say that and I honestly dont think it's an exaggeration. Nonu and Weepu are clearly two of the most talented players NZ rugby has ever seen but they both will ultimately go down as players who failed to reach their potential - it' been good to see Nonu pull his head out over the last few years to some extent and achieve "some" of that potential. More than weepu who I now think will never learn. Heck Weepu has been in and out of the All Blacks since 2004, I think he has more talent than anyone else that has worn the 9 jersey for the all blacks in that time yet he's only had ~55 test caps?

Bleh.

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree.

It's not like we don't see the talent there, just not to the point where the nut-huggers see it.