French Second rowers

[Big Ewis]

Hey,
to the french fans on here, or whoever follows the top14 and XV de France:
I was just reading this article:
http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/top-1...me-lignes-de-la-saison_sto3792432/story.shtml

As they emphasize, Yoann Maestri is definitely very quiet, very discreet. I've yet to be able to assess just how good (or not so much) he really is. I think second rowers are the least celebrated, and I'll often overlook them or forget them; unless it's a Bakkies Botha or someone naturally noticeable; as there's so much action during the 80min...

He's had some good matches for sure, but what could be said about him ? How good is he in the rucks, and is he truly as good as they say in the scrum ?
They put Samson in front of him in the top14 rankings - do you agree with this ? Or is this some effect of Samson being in Castres and Castres winning the cup ?

And then there are the Polynesians Vahaamahina and Taofifenua, which everyone will say the same thing about: unpolished diamonds, rarities for the position, but who've yet to tap into their potentials and become consistent, quality locks.
I for one know Vahaamahina is EXTREMELY shy from interviews (and him mentioning it himself), so I think as he matures as a man, so will he as a player, and he'll find a way to keep consistent. But I've yet to see a great match from him.

 

[big ginger 8]

Have to say I've always really rated Maestri. Top quality player when he's on form.

 

[Big Ewis]

well his has physical predispositions, as a factor in itself: 2,02 m (6′ 8″), 121 kg (266 lb). He's young, and dedicated. Won't find him falling asleep too often, though he does look like the "slow", gentle giant type.

But then, does he really have more than size/strength and heart; does he have the skillset that comes along with it, or isn't he standard ?

 

[big ginger 8]

well his has physical predispositions, as a factor in itself: 2,02 m (6′ 8″), 121 kg (266 lb). He's young, and dedicated. Won't find him falling asleep too often, though he does look like the "slow", gentle giant type.

But then, does he really have more than size/strength and heart; does he have the skillset that comes along with it, or isn't he standard ?

I think he's very skillful has good aerial skills think in his first 6N he won motm against us and it was an excellent performance where he demonstrated a not inconsiderablre amount of skill.

 

[Big Ewis]

hmm...seems like you have a vivid image of that, I'll keep that in mind......
and his cauliflower ears give him that edge too...

 

[gaston le gaff]

One of the main reason why second row players do not hit the highlights is that their job is more grunt and muscle often given little credit for the job that they do but are essential to any good side. France have had quality 2nd row players over the years but never do you see them getting M O T M awards. Yoe mentioned how shy some players are i can assure you that not just 2 nd row players many of the players are microphone shy and do not say to much, i interview players often from the TOP 14 and often you need to prompt them especially the younger ones, at Montpellier Mamuka Gorgodze rarely gives media interviews great person but extremely shy and he is a full blooded International + Ba Ba's player .
There are many good 2nd row players in France both French and foreign, and normally they are quite and unobtrusive that is their nature but a team without good engine room players can not be a team. The biggest International problem in France is that now we have so many foreign players at key positons eg. 8,9,10 the French side will always be struggling at the highest level especially at the key all important positions, one reason maybe why PSA, has brought in players on the residency rule for the All Blacks tour, France has never really profited from this ruling like some countries but maybe we will see much more of it in the future.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

Samson had a freakish semi final and final, to top off a very good regular season. If it was only for the regular season, I'd say Maestri would have edged it.
To be honest, France are quite spoiled for locks for the near future. Maestri, Vahaamahina, Taofifenua and Flanquart are all very young, and Samson is playing very well and still has a couple of WC cycles in him.
Add Suta in there and you have enough alternatives.

 

[Big Ewis]

yes, I do think locks are the most discreet, because it's a position that requires a lot of concentration, work, but not much exposure/notoriety. It's nowhere near the flashy back play, it's not as noticeable as the front row we constantly see in scrums, never mentioned during scrums in fact, and then you don't see them carry like no.8's or fetch/make huge hits like flankers on defense...

So I think it's no coincidence that very often, they're discreet, even shy individuals; in that they become locks specifically. Or maybe is it the position that humbles them...
I mean, Paul O'Connell or Botha aren't particularly discreet !...

but a guy like Brad Thorn was pretty television-friendly, but still completely invisible during the actual 80min (not to say he didn't play well) relatively to the other AB...

Anyways: Suta I'm not sold on, but he's not bad. Samson has had some great matches, it's true...Maestri will do work, but I like the two young Polynesians, esp. Vahaamahina. Though I haven't seen a whole lot to cheer about so far, again I feel as he matures he'll grow into a powerful presence.

 

[Tony Manx]

Now it will come as no surpirse to anyone that I have been mildly critical at times of Biarritz for the last few seasons.......HOWEVER, I take issue with the omission of Erik "The Viking" Lund from the list as he has been pretty damn consistent appearing in 24 Top 14 and 6 Cup matches (at one time or another) which is more than Chisholm and he has been a colossus this season....I have many memories of him staying on his feet with three opposition tacklers hanging on as support comes to him. He is superb in the line out and scrummages well....he falls into Yoe's description of a very quiet, shy man who does the hard yards and can be anonymous but is one the the real favourites at Agullera!

 

[Big Ewis]

I've seen a few BO games....as in Biarritz Olympique....(ahemm...)
and yeh that Norwegian dude sure can lock. How the hell did this guy find his way into Rugby ?!.....

 

[ZeFrenchy]

He moved to England when he was 6 months old.

We all forgot Pascal Papé, who just gets better as he gets older. Lock is probably the position where there is most choice for the next years.

 

[Big Ewis]

Oh ok...coz in Norway, the national sport is more like...bashing christianity.

shyyyyyt !!! Old Pascal Papé !!! Amazing, how quickly we forget huh...if he's read this thread, I bet he's cracked a tear or two in silence as he's scrolling down the thread !!
He's such a "brave gars".

EDIT: seems like France has some hell of some depth at 4 and 5 in retrospect, huh ?...

 

[Taranus]

Why isn't Pape with the French national team? Injury?

 

[ZeFrenchy]

Yes. He was supposed to be the captain.

 

[sifplay]

I really enjoy how the French play these days. Bash bash bash bash bash with a slow scrummy and a ten who no Renaissance man

 

[Big Ewis]

I really enjoy how the French play these days. Bash bash bash bash bash with a slow scrummy and a ten who no Renaissance man

ah yeh ? interesting. Say, when's the last time the Boks came this close to beating the AB again (at Eden Park) ?
And we'll see all about our 'slow' game when you guys come to town during the end-of-year tour this year ! Hopefully this time you can rely on more than just luck of barely beating a decimated Irish team, a confused England team you beat with the luckiest try in existence (by a single pt) and barely winning over the least apt side in the 6N, Scotland, by a mere 10 points.
Yes, yes, I know, Habana wasn't there.

This thread's about French second rowers, my friend...french second rowers.

 

[sifplay]

ah yeh ? interesting. Say, when's the last time the Boks came this close to beating the AB again (at Eden Park) ?
And we'll see all about our 'slow' game when you guys come to town during the end-of-year tour this year ! Hopefully this time you can rely on more than just luck of barely beating a decimated Irish team, a confused England team you beat with the luckiest try in existence (by a single pt) and barely winning over the least apt side in the 6N, Scotland, by a mere 10 points.
Yes, yes, I know, Habana wasn't there.

This thread's about French second rowers, my friend...french second rowers.

Well you centers are playing like second rowers. In fact the whole French team play like second rowers. We play bash bash bash cause we grew up watching it and gotten use to it. But a French team playing itNooooooooo! That would be a terrible thing for world rugby. You can't play bash bash bash without a Kickbot with a massive boot. Freddy was so creative at the Sharks that they had to move him to 9 to stop them from looking to creative and un South African a like.

But French flair is dead maaan. Being coached out of the players and the way French clubs are buying every foreigner that can hold a rugby ball French rugby are going to find it harder to fill positions cause it being filled by foreigners.

Win by 1 point win by 100 a win is a win. In the end all you say look at the scoreboard. And I think we won in 1998 at Eden Park or was it in Wellington? Not that it matter their like 5 miles apart on that wee island

 

[gaston le gaff]

Is this Sifplay some kind of wind up merchant he talks BOLLO...'s why do people contribute when they dont contribute, feels like a forum of a SA lavatory cleaner, full of shi.......
but then if thats all he can do i do feel sorry for the guy. The French DO not buy AND ARE NOT ALLOWED to buy every foreigner who can hold a rugby ball as there is a little thing called Jiff its French, very complicated and very very very difficult to understand so look it up on a French web site and tell me how you get on, then maybe we may have an understanding of what's happening in France and why most of the best players in the world end up here at some time or other, playing highly competitive and well paid rugby why should the footie guys get all the cash !!!!!!!!!!! but then what would i know i only live here!!!!!

 

[Big Ewis]

Well you centers are playing like second rowers. In fact the whole French team play like second rowers. We play bash bash bash cause we grew up watching it and gotten use to it. But a French team playing itNooooooooo! That would be a terrible thing for world rugby. You can't play bash bash bash without a Kickbot with a massive boot. Freddy was so creative at the Sharks that they had to move him to 9 to stop them from looking to creative and un South African a like.

But French flair is dead maaan. Being coached out of the players and the way French clubs are buying every foreigner that can hold a rugby ball French rugby are going to find it harder to fill positions cause it being filled by foreigners.

Win by 1 point win by 100 a win is a win. In the end all you say look at the scoreboard. And I think we won in 1998 at Eden Park or was it in Wellington? Not that it matter their like 5 miles apart on that wee island

fair points. But that first post was a bit random (well, completely...).
I think French Rugby still has some excellent moves in it, looking at even this past year, where we've had the our worst 6N; but also just this past November, we definitely still have flair, no question. We've become more pragmatic, and it's not like the 70's/80's nobody's questioning that.

But I think it's become a trend now to just use that phrase "been coached out of em, French flair is dead". We still have some pretty plays every two matches or so, and that's all I ask for. We look to attack, and we haven't become a 10-man team (yet ?). We've got that scrum, but our backs are capable guys, and aesthetically I like what we do.

Is this Sifplay some kind of wind up merchant he talks BOLLO...'s why do people contribute when they dont contribute, feels like a forum of a SA lavatory cleaner, full of shi.......
but then if thats all he can do i do feel sorry for the guy. The French DO not buy AND ARE NOT ALLOWED to buy every foreigner who can hold a rugby ball as there is a little thing called Jiff its French, very complicated and very very very difficult to understand so look it up on a French web site and tell me how you get on, then maybe we may have an understanding of what's happening in France and why most of the best players in the world end up here at some time or other, playing highly competitive and well paid rugby why should the footie guys get all the cash !!!!!!!!!!! but then what would i know i only live here!!!!!

well I dunno about all that Gaston, don't take it so hard. Money is money, and it just so happens there are big fat owners and there's a lot of wealth right now in France. It's a cycle. A few int'l players, others feel like "ok, hey, why not ? Let's go to France", and more follow, and more. More money, bigger salary caps...it could've happened in England or Australia...happened in France.

I don't think it's as bad as ppl say, that' the int'l players are stealing the spotlight from the French ones, just look at our team. We've got good class everywhere, even at 9 and 10 which are constantly criticized right now, but just in November Michalak and co. were ripping Australia and Argentina open and were brutal at the breakdown.

France has ALWAYS had quality players. The only problem is this calendar. We play 20 more games or wtvr than everybody !!...

ABOUT SECOND ROWERS:
wtvr happened to Jérome Thion ?!Hewas even captain at one point, then just disappeared from the bleus forever...used to be called "bras", for obvious reasons !

 

[sifplay]

fair points. But that first post was a bit random (well, completely...).
I think French Rugby still has some excellent moves in it, looking at even this past year, where we've had the our worst 6N; but also just this past November, we definitely still have flair, no question. We've become more pragmatic, and it's not like the 70's/80's nobody's questioning that.

But I think it's become a trend now to just use that phrase "been coached out of em, French flair is dead". We still have some pretty plays every two matches or so, and that's all I ask for. We look to attack, and we haven't become a 10-man team (yet ?). We've got that scrum, but our backs are capable guys, and aesthetically I like what we do.






well I dunno about all that Gaston, don't take it so hard. Money is money, and it just so happens there are big fat owners and there's a lot of wealth right now in France. It's a cycle. A few int'l players, others feel like "ok, hey, why not ? Let's go to France", and more follow, and more. More money, bigger salary caps...it could've happened in England or Australia...happened in France.

I don't think it's as bad as ppl say, that' the int'l players are stealing the spotlight from the French ones, just look at our team. We've got good class everywhere, even at 9 and 10 which are constantly criticized right now, but just in November Michalak and co. were ripping Australia and Argentina open and were brutal at the breakdown.

France has ALWAYS had quality players. The only problem is this calendar. We play 20 more games or wtvr than everybody !!...

ABOUT SECOND ROWERS:
wtvr happened to Jérome Thion ?!Hewas even captain at one point, then just disappeared from the bleus forever...used to be called "bras", for obvious reasons !

It is not that the players do not have the skill level but the balancing act of rugby itself. Teams like SA and England do not play less attractive rugby cause they can't pass or offload (Think England and SA have proved that in the past from each stints in their glory years) but because we like the idea of massive forwards to intimidate play physical and use power and grunt. The side effects is bigger guys burn energy quicker and sides like NZ and Australia who have a smaller pack but more mobile one don't give the ball away before they sapped the energy from your bigger forwards. That is the balance act and the French always had that balanced. Its now tipping on the big side where they are playing with a massive pack rather than more mobile and they still do not really get the idea behind it. French had some great 10's but their not 10's that going to pin point kick play for territory and rely on their line out to win the ball back? Take Sella or Blanco for instant. They would not make a modern French team they would be told they are too small plain and simple.

What is more frightening is seeing a post by a French guy talking about size first and how big the guys are who maybe a prospect. Its like I walked into a South African forum or a discussion about selections cause here we are hang up on huge the guys are. That is why guys like Brussouw gets overlooked as well as other mobile players in the pack. Mallett used mobile props and a mobile hooker and the pack went around the park. The backs also held the ball in their exit zone and were more attacking. Cause we were mobile enough to do it. We had that balance. Although we still conceded a bit in the scrums and in that 1997 Parc de Prince slaughter we ran all over the French but they still dominated the scrum