Football Thread

[Welsh Exile]

Part of the Liverpool cult? Whatever.

I just giving my opinion because the media were saying go after him as an elite manager.

The England manager's job is more stressful because it's not just about being a coach. It's all the BS baggage, expectation and toxic culture - from the media to fans. Look at how Southgate has aged in 8 years and totally fed up of the utter ungratefulness. Why would Klopp want that if he could just be German manager?

I said Liverpool cult because you implied you knew him like you're best buddies or something.

I totally disagree with your view that it's more stresssful than managing a club. Especially an elite club where you have pressure to win week in week out and fans are fickle everywhere, thigh I do concede Liverpool fans are particularly cultish about their managers so may be more forgiving but the fact remains the workload is like 20 times more and the pressure is as intense, if not more so. But again, you have this idea in your head that the England job is this uniquely difficult job whereas other nations, or in their debate clubs, don't have that media big game/fan stuff to worry about. Of course they do and it's ridiculous to say so.

8 years is a long time. I bet you if Southgate was managing a relegation team for the last 8 years he'd look like Biden.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I said Liverpool cult because you implied you knew him like you're best buddies or something.

No, but am a Liverpool fan who has followed the club and Klopp.

I totally disagree with your view that it's more stresssful than managing a club. Especially an elite club where you have pressure to win week in week out and fans are fickle everywhere, thigh I do concede Liverpool fans are particularly cultish about their managers so may be more forgiving but the fact remains the workload is like 20 times more and the pressure is as intense, if not more so. But again, you have this idea in your head that the England job is this uniquely difficult job whereas other nations, or in their debate clubs, don't have that media big game/fan stuff to worry about. Of course they do and it's ridiculous to say so.

8 years is a long time. I bet you if Southgate was managing a relegation team for the last 8 years he'd look like Biden.

Agree to disagree. That is why I think it is more stressful for manager to manage and win with an international team, especially England. An elite manager of a club wants to win - they need the contact time with players week in week out to drill them with their philosophy. Not meet them 10 times a year and then come tournament time have to pick through the players who have been wrung out like chattels playing club football because they're injured, carrying injuries or woefully out of form. The England job uniquely so because they have not won a major trophy in 60 years come 2026 and the expectation that comes with it. The toxic abuse and impact on the family of Southgate. And I am sure the other major nations have equally critical fans and media - but I am not from that country and the likes of Spain, France, Germany, Brazil, Argentina have won many major trophies in the last 60 years. Other countries I think their fans are just happy to reach a major tournament. - hence less pressure.

 

[Welsh Exile]

No, but am a Liverpool fan who has followed the club and Klopp.

Agree to disagree. That is why I think it is more stressful for manager to manage and win with an international team, especially England. An elite manager of a club wants to win - they need the contact time with players week in week out to drill them with their philosophy. Not meet them 10 times a year and then come tournament time have to pick through the players who have been wrung out like chattels playing club football because they're injured, carrying injuries or woefully out of form. The England job uniquely so because they have not won a major trophy in 60 years come 2026 and the expectation that comes with it. The toxic abuse and impact on the family of Southgate. And I am sure the other major nations have equally critical fans and media - but I am not from that country and the likes of Spain, France, Germany, Brazil, Argentina have won many major trophies in the last 60 years. Other countries I think their fans are just happy to reach a major tournament. - hence less pressure.

I wonder how you'd feel if your employer said you've got to do 20 times more work than you're doing now? Do you think you might find it more stressful.

Another argument I think supports my argument is that in England, the tribalism of club football is more than the national team. Most football fans in England care more about their clubs than they do the national team hence more pressure on club managers, plus the way bigger workload. I actually think you're objectively wrong on this but agree to disagree

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I wonder how you'd feel if your employer said you've got to do 20 times more work than you're doing now? Do you think you might find it more stressful.

Another argument I think supports my argument is that in England, the tribalism of club football is more than the national team. Most football fans in England care more about their clubs than they do the national team hence more pressure on club managers, plus the way bigger workload. I actually think you're objectively wrong on this but agree to disagree

You're missing the point. It's not about the money. Klopp doesn't need it. It's the pressure of the whole country on top of you to win a trophy when the system doesn't help them. That is why there is too much pressure on the England manager to change the culture of the way the team plays from the top. It also wouldn't mean as much to Klopp to win for England than it would do for Germany.

A club manager just has his set of fans to deal with pressure wise and expectation. They can control things more because they get daily contact with their players an international coach just doesn't have. Multiply that 200 fold with the number of England fans, with all the club fans. Plus, the major tournaments are only every two years and that's if England qualify.

Just finished watching the final attack on Wembley. That sums it up and the disgusting nature of England football fans.

 

[Welsh Exile]

You're missing the point. It's not about the money. Klopp doesn't need it. It's the pressure of the whole country on top of you to win a trophy when the system doesn't help them. That is why there is too much pressure on the England manager to change the culture of the way the team plays from the top. It also wouldn't mean as much to Klopp to win for England than it would do for Germany.

A club manager just has his set of fans to deal with pressure wise and expectation. They can control things more because they get daily contact with their players an international coach just doesn't have. Multiply that 200 fold with the number of England fans, with all the club fans. Plus, the major tournaments are only every two years and that's if England qualify.

Just finished watching the final attack on Wembley. That sums it up and the disgusting nature of England football fans.

I'm not missing your point at all and where in my post you quoted does it say anything about money? This whole conversation is a bit odd.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I'm not missing your point at all and where in my post you quoted does it say anything about money? This whole conversation is a bit odd.

The part where you said if my employer pays me 20 times would make my job less stressful.

I am using this thread as a platform for discuss the England manager's job. You've bitten with your opinions - previously suggesting IIRC Klopp would make a better manager than South gate managing England. I am just replying to your responses but my point is more wider. That it's not just down to the England manager. Whoever they replace Southgate with they are up against it. We've had the same issues for the last 60 Years and proof of that. Change the manager, same end result.

 

[Welsh Exile]

The part where you said if my employer pays me 20 times would make my job less stressful.

I am using this thread as a platform for discuss the England manager's job. You've bitten with your opinions - previously suggesting IIRC Klopp would make a better manager than South gate managing England. I am just replying to your responses but my point is more wider. That it's not just down to the England manager. Whoever they replace Southgate with they are up against it. We've had the same issues for the last 60 Years and proof of that. Change the manager, same end result.

I think you're the one who's missing my point. If you read it again I'm not talking about pay at all. I'm talking about workload. Klopp said he was burnt out. It's really not hard to follow. Are you more likely to burn out managing 10 games per year and a handful of training sessions or 60 games per year and hundreds of training sessions.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I think you're the one who's missing my point. If you read it again I'm not talking about pay at all. I'm talking about workload. Klopp said he was burnt out. It's really not hard to follow. Are you more likely to burn out managing 10 games per year and a handful of training sessions or 60 games per year and hundreds of training sessions.

We are on a different page. Klopp is irrelevant. I know that he wouldn't accept the England job anyway. Anyway agree to disagree.

Your opinion on the England manager represents a large body that misunderstands the problems facing England national team and ultimately winning a major trophy. It is not just about burn out from the job from playing too many games, but winning at the highest level, and having the structures in place to give them the best chance to do so. All England managers, apart from Sir Alf have it the same brick wall. I feel sorry for Southgate because I know he did the best that he could do. The rest is just white noise and irrelevant as far as I am concerned.

 

[Welsh Exile]

We are on a different page. Klopp is irrelevant. I know that he wouldn't accept the England job anyway. Anyway agree to disagree.

Your opinion on the England manager represents a large body that misunderstands the problems facing England national team and ultimately winning a major trophy. It is not just about burn out from the job from playing too many games, but winning at the highest level, and having the structures in place to give them the best chance to do so. All England managers, apart from Sir Alf have it the same brick wall. I feel sorry for Southgate because I know he did the best that he could do. The rest is just white noise and irrelevant as far as I am concerned.

I thought it was unlikely but just pushed back on your "ridiculous" claims given he's had health scares and has just quit his job due to being burnt out. Sometimes when people are burnt out they look for jobs with lesser workloads. But yeah, as I've said, it was always probably unlikely. Elite level coaches like Klopp don't tend to manage international football because it's not elite.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I thought it was unlikely but just pushed back on your "ridiculous" claims given he's had health scares and has just quit his job due to being burnt out. Sometimes when people are burnt out they look for jobs with lesser workloads. But yeah, as I've said, it was always probably unlikely. Elite level coaches like Klopp don't tend to manage international football because it's not elite.

It's also not just that Klopp was on £15m a year plus at Liverpool. The FA would not be able to afford those wages. Even a Guardiola is totally out of the e FA's league when it comes to wages. Southgate was on £5m a year.

And I said that Klopp left Liverpool in his words because he "ran out of energy". He's bought and built a £3m holiday home in Majorca. It was ridiculous that he would drop all that to manage England given now that the only successful outcome now is to win a major trophy and there can never be any guarantee of that - even though the FA have now stupidly put this as a requirement for the new coach.

Anyway, the search for the next coach continues. It'll boil down to whether they go for a foreign coach or an English coach. That leads to the next issue that will limit the search for a Preference for an English coach. There are few of them managing in the PL. Graham Potter or Lee Carsley then? Please not Frank Lampard.

If it is foreign coach he would have to understand the the PL and English culture of playing - Pochettino, Tuchel . Plus likely demand high wages.

There's also the issue that the FA have ploughed millions into building St George's which has still to produce enough coaches that have come through the system and in turn hired in the PL. Choosing a foreign coach would send the wrong signal for this pet project.

 

[BrokenWing]

It'll be Lee Carsley.

He take over in a "caretaker" role and the rumour mill will go into overdrive that The FA is waiting for Guardiola.

That'll blow over and Carsley will remain.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Good tactical analysis of Gareth's reign and why the new manager will also face the same problems.

 

[BrokenWing]

It's good analysis, but he can tell me all he wants that England don't sit back and try and defend a lead. They still do.

I don't care who you're playing and how far they push you back, there's still NO excuse for your main striker to be taking the ball off the centre backs feet.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

True, but I think the main takeaway is England still don't produce a number 6 who can play in the pivot role, take the ball on the half turn and play it forwards. Rice isn't that player, but it shouldn't just be down to him. If they can't get through the high press against the top
Teams then they'll always be limited.

Kane can't get the ball which is why he goes hunting for it way back in defence, same thing happened to Rooney late on in his career. All well and good having great attacking players but if they don't have the ball they can't get it into the opposition box often enough to score.

 

[BrokenWing]

Then they need to be TOLD to stay upfield to give an option. Kane isn't going to do that now as he's lost what little pace he had, much like Rooney.

He didn't offer a suggestion as to who would be able to fill that pivot role did he?

When they played Trent in midfield, it was futile as no one in front of him was moving into space to receive a pass anyway, so the passer isn't everything, you still need to rest of the team to play their part and against lesser teams there no reason Rice shouldn't be able to play forward passes.

I mean, if that was the key to everything it would mean you could nullify any team by marking their pivot out of the game.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

He didn't offer a suggestion as to who would be able to fill that pivot role did he?

No he didn't. He said we just don't have that profile a player. Personally would be interested to see how Wharton does. Not seen enough of him and he didn't get any minutes this euros, but he apparently passes between the lines.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Then they need to be TOLD to stay upfield to give an option. Kane isn't going to do that now as he's lost what little pace he had, much like Rooney.

He didn't offer a suggestion as to who would be able to fill that pivot role did he?

When they played Trent in midfield, it was futile as no one in front of him was moving into space to receive a pass anyway, so the passer isn't everything, you still need to rest of the team to play their part and against lesser teams there no reason Rice shouldn't be able to play forward passes.

I mean, if that was the key to everything it would mean you could nullify any team by marking their pivot out of the game.

I think Southgate knows that but it's easier said than done, especially in a final. It wasn't just the final but a cumulative effect of the matches before.

I love Trent but Klopp played him in a different way than Southgate who played him solely in midfield alongside Rice. He's also a long passer of the ball whereas in international football you need that midfielder who passes it short as well and helps build through midfield. Southgate also didn't have time to bed him into that system before the tournament. That is part of international managers not having the time with players.

On the marking the single pivot out of the game. That's what Foden was doing to Rhodri in the first half. And when Rhodri went off in the second that is when Spain scored. I think it's getting the balance in midfield which is made of the component parts of which the single pivot is extremely important part of. England don't have that player who can play that, which why Southgate was trying the double pivot but could never quite get that blend to work perfectly especially v Spain.

 

[BrokenWing]

Oh I wasn't suggesting Trent was the answer to that problem, as a fullback 95% of the play is in front of him so he's not having to take the ball and turn.

But if no one upfield is moving, or stood next to you, then it's irrelevant how good a passer you are.

My biggest issue with Southgate wasn't his selection or tactics, but his unwillingness to change them when it wasn't working unless England went behind.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Yes, and that's the other thing if you play Trent but don't have runners to play in behind then what is the point. But he reminds of how Beckham/Gerrard played in midfield in terms of ball playing anyway - whipping in diagonal balls into the box.

My biggest issue with Southgate wasn't his selection or tactics, but his unwillingness to change them when it wasn't working unless England went behind.

He did try and change that - bringing on the changes v Switzerland, and of course Wakins and Palmer in the semis. The problem with making too many changes is changing the rhythm of the team. Even if you chuck loads of of subs on, they've got to be effective.

This is quite a good documentary by GT before he died. The same issues are still affecting the manager and national team:

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I'm not really going to engage in the whataboutism as that's what it is, whataboutism,

Well, not necessarily, and not always. It is whataboutism (formally a tu quoque fallacy) if you are talking about A and switch the subject to B in order to avoid giving a straight answer about A. If the subject is comparing A to B then it is most certainly NOT whataboutism. Just as i conceded there is a part of whataboutism i expect you to concede that not everything there is whataboutism and some of the points have merit.

I'm just not aware of these other things that you bring up about Noah and Griezman and whoever but if true then yes, I would say that is bad.

Could you understand that, from our point of view, it sounds a bit too bloody convenient that no one here says anything about two very high profile people saying EXACTLY the same but when we say it it suddenly becomes faux pas and everyone starts name calling when we do it? It really, really looks as if the outcry depended not on what was said but on the race, ethnicity, etc of the one saying those things, which would make it racist (etc) by definition. Do you see our point?

Let me ask you another thing. We are basically being accused of being racist because of the lyrics of a song. That is fundamentally the argument. The question will sound silly but humour me: how is our song more racist than say, the marseillaise. Do not disregard it, please. And be specific. I want to see, exactly, why you find the lyrics of our song racist, but you say nothing about France's national anthem.

Here's what i see, and please, just as you ask for empathy, have some:

Trevor Noah say the exact same thing: not a word
President of Kenya says the exact same thing: no reaction
ESPN's twitter account says literally the same. Nothing
The French sing their anthem ten zillion times a year claiming what they'd do to those of impure blood. Nothing again.

So my question to you is: how on earth can you be so blind to everything around you and yet have such a specific knowledge of a football chant Argentines happen to sing?

Let me use another example: This is a rugby forum. Argentines sing a 'controversial' footie song: hundreds of posts. Two french rugby players get acussed of rape in their last tour to Arg, a couple of weeks ago: zero posts. ZE-RO.
So apparently offensive footie songs are more newsworthy than (potential/alleged) rape.
Let me guess: you weren't aware of that either. That's shocking.
Do you see the trend now?

I don't know, this is not my specific area of expertise, but it looks like i am either in front of one of the biggest cases of selective blindness in history of mankind or there might be quite a bit of bias here.

And for the love of god, please, do NOT take this as an appeal to pity. Hit us with everything you've got. We encourage it, we love it. We wont cry foul.
We will try to 'hit' back tho.