Long post, and tbf, odds are you wont like what i have to say.
Well this post isn't very helpful at all to be honest. Either explain and help people understand your point or don't say anything.
I wasn't trying to help in that post. I was asking a question. In general people asking questions are more often seeking for help than attempting to provide it.
I asked a(n implicit) question, which for the record, you did not answer.
And just so we're clear, i don't need to do anything nor i need your permission to post what i see fit as long as i don't break the forum rules, which i have not.
If you have a question i could probably help you out tho. Happy to do so actually. I would appreciate a straight question tho. Helps to orientate the discussion.
Not going to pretend i speak on behalf of my countrymen, but i'll take a jab at interpreting the responses i've heard/read. I reserve the right to add some color here and there, for poetic purposes, so don't take me
too seriously nor (always) literally. Hopefully the meaning will be obvious. Again, i want this to be crystal clear: this is about what i believe the avg Arg thinks/believes, not what I think/believe. I agree with some, not all, but that is another matter.
The only thing i ask from you is to have an open mind and acknowledge the possibility that something you might find incredibly racist/xenophobic/etc might not necessarily be so. You don't even have to agree. I am just asking you to accept the possibility. That's all. I don't think i am asking for much. A bit of rope when you read the explanation instead of coming with 'that's racist' off the bat would help, too.
Maybe some broad strokes will help (again, some rope and open mind, please). Try to focus on the underlying message and not on the delivery, which is poor, of course:
Context matters. It does. This is a footie chant. Footie chants are offensive by intent and design. That is the entire bloody point. One of my best mates is from Bolivia and i would never call him ******* Bolivian (or equivalent) in a regular conversation. He knows that, i know that, everyone in the group knows that. But when we are watching footie insulting, intimidating and offending are not only permitted, but encouraged. He's gonna call me a chicken (literally) and i think i don't need to explain that i am not really a large and round short-winged domesticated bird, do i? His intent is to insult me. I accept that. It's is, for the lack of a better word, a competition.
I can guess what's coming: 'well, the fact that is the norm doesn't make it right, does it?'. Fair question. No, it doesn't. What makes it
fair is that we don't really mean it AND that that no one forces you to play. I don't believe he's a
******* Bolivian just as he doesn't believe i am a chicken (literally nor figuratively).
Negative discrimination is based on a belief system: that certain body shape, nationality, race, religion, etc etc should have less rights than the rest (i m greatly simplifying the def here, i know). We (overwhelming majority) do not believe that. We do not. We do not.
So why do we say/chant that? Because we see a gap in the armor there and our objective is to offend, to insult, to disturb. So that's our target. I can see how that is not good enough of an excuse/explanation/argument for some. For many of us, it is.
We (again, most, not all) have some off limit themes, but they are rare exceptions. We will not target something because we think it to be true. We do it to hurt. And in doing so we hurt our friends, family, etc. We target everyone, and i mean everyone, regardless of pretty much anything. We might tone down the sort of insult in some exceptional cases but pretty much anyone and anything is fair game.
Those are the rules of engagement.
Some might not like it, and that is fine.
We don't like a LOT of things we have to live with. Way, way worse things than a fottie song.
The next part involves a not so minor amount of whataboutism, i partially concede, but i think it raises a few interesting points and will most definitely help you to understand where most people are coming from.
In a way, we see a gargantuan double standard in the 'rules' imposed by some and respected only if and when it suits their narrative. The key word here is impose.
They care when Enzo claims that half of France has an African background/heritage and want his head on a pike... but said nothing when
Trevor Noah (link) or
Ruto (link) (president of Kenya in case you're wondering) said almost exactly the same thing. And from position of more exposure, responsibility and power. And again, not a ******* word.
'well, i didnt know'.
Sorry, not good enough. That selective blindness is hard to buy.
A lot of people, a LOT, are tired of those double standards. If the name of the game is 'damned if we do damned if we don't' then we will chose damned if we do. 10 times out of 10. Why? Well, where do we start? Because we are a bit tired of being lectured on morals by people who come from countries that instrumented the world's worst atrocities in recorded history.
You (not YOU WEx) drove people against a wall where they don't care anymore. That imposing of yours (again, not YOU) made people realize they had a choice: if you want to feel offended then please, go ahead, we dont give a **** anymore. We tried talking and explaining and instead of trying to find a middle ground you claimed your ways were morally right and our unacceptable. So be it, we chose to be unacceptable. Do not accept us. We will play our cards accordingly. If you dont want to negotiate, neither will we.
If someone is going to play the victim card and claim offense anyways we'd rather die with our boots on. We are done listening to others set the standards with which these things are supposed to be judged only to change those standards when they backfire on them. 2014, Germans making fun of Argentines in a packed stadium and live tv, after they beat us in the WC final. We took it to the chin. Did we claim discrimination? Did we file a complain to Fifa. **** no. Where was the outrage?
Or how about when Griezman and Dembele made fun of Asian hotel staff? Did any of them loose their jobs? Did the captain and head of the FFF came out and apologized on their behalf?
I dont recall.
We are sick and tired of being lectured on morals by people who's continent designed the largest case of mass slavery in modern history.
We are surprised that those accusing the songs of racism, colonialism and xenophobia say nothing, absolutely nothing about France acting as the central banker and charging seigniorage to many African nations.
We are exhausted of
being asked why there are no black people in Arg's national football team (link) while Japan, Fiji and Cameroon are not asked why don't they have latinos in theirs. For us, both question are just as dumb.
We are outraged at watching many, many places, particularly in europe, bending over backwards and adjusting their culture to accommodate some of the most backwards practices from outside, and pretending to look elsewhere just to avoid seeing the obvious and gigantic contradictions, only to turn around and claim a bloody song is so offensive that it requires someone's head on a pike.
I know, a bit of whataboutism, i know. But it is SOO ******* much. And the coin always appears to land on the same side. At one point the dam breaks and these are the are some of the consequences.
Are you in such a need to feel offended? Try this then
Ask ALL footie players from religion X: what's your take on women's right?
Ask ALL footie players from religions X and Y: do you think homosexuality is a sin?
Put them against the wall, pressure them, look for what they really believe, where they stand.
Start there, trust me, there is plenty.
Much better and useful than using a song, a bloody song as an scapegoat.
And those are just some of the moral arguments/incongruences.
Let me give you a practical one: what they are doing does not work. Punishing people for these sort of things wont change people minds (if they are racist/xenoph/etc). Best case scenario, they wont say it out loud and worst case it they will start voting for people who do not punish them for saying those things out loud.
It is very impractical to try to change what people think by force.
