EOYT: Ireland v South Africa, 11/10/2012

[donmcdazzle]

Michael Bent hahahahahaha

 

[Peat]

Is Tom Court injured? No problem with him not being selected on the bench given he's unlikely to be around at the next World Cup but right now he's a better player than Dave Kilcoyne.

If he's injured, it's been kept incredibly quiet. Good luck to Kilcoyne and you can see the logic, but it looks like red-tinted glasses to me.

Start for Ulster.

Which isn't going to happen and we all know why. Personally, I don't think it does Ireland - or any country - any good to effectively rule out players in his position. Sometimes the best players don't start for their clubs. It happens. I don't get how England, with 3 times the top level professional clubs and 2 times the HEC spots (usually), can cheerfully stick guys who are second best at their club into starting international shirts without much of a murmur (and with results) while it seems a get a flat refusal and "Oh no no" in Ireland.

If nothing else, I don't think it's good if Eoin Reddan and Murray know that they simply have to turn up to training, amble about and not get injured and behold! Caps. Particularly when there's a set pecking order writ in concrete already.

You can make plenty of arguments for why Small Paul shouldn't be playing with Ireland - his passing can be erratic, his decision making mental, he's not the most structured of players - but the fact he comes on for 20 minutes rather than comes off after 60 in the biggest games shouldn't be one of them.

 

[big ginger 8]

In fairness I don't think Kilcoyne is a biased selection he deserves a go and is more likely to make an impact with his carrying off the bench.

Agree about the starting thing.

 

[psychic duck]

Surprised Michael Bent has been fast tracked into the side without a minute for Leinster.

It's not as if he has any particular great pedigree at Super Rugby level either, he's 26 and has only made 2 starts for the Hurricanes his entire career and no start at all in this year's Super Rugby season.

I don't know why Ireland constantly ignore Jamie Hagan, I'm not saying he will destroy opposition, but when I've seen him play he looks better than Ronan Loughney or Stephen Archer both who get called up ahead of him.

 

[irelandfan123]

upsetting to see zebo at fullback when he has rarely or never played there whereas Gilroy has played there for Ireland U20's and played well

 

[big ginger 8]

Surprised Michael Bent has been fast tracked into the side without a minute for Leinster.

It's not as if he has any particular great pedigree at Super Rugby level either, he's 26 and has only made 2 starts for the Hurricanes his entire career and no start at all in this year's Super Rugby season.

I don't know why Ireland constantly ignore Jamie Hagan, I'm not saying he will destroy opposition, but when I've seen him play he looks better than Ronan Loughney or Stephen Archer both who get called up ahead of him.

Hagan doesnt get picked for similar reasons to Marahall I'd say stupid as it is. Their reasoning is Bent is match fit after an ITM cup season. I hope he doesn't actually play for Ireland until/ unless he earns it.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Surprised Michael Bent has been fast tracked into the side without a minute for Leinster.

It's not as if he has any particular great pedigree at Super Rugby level either, he's 26 and has only made 2 starts for the Hurricanes his entire career and no start at all in this year's Super Rugby season.

I don't know why Ireland constantly ignore Jamie Hagan, I'm not saying he will destroy opposition, but when I've seen him play he looks better than Ronan Loughney or Stephen Archer both who get called up ahead of him.

Needs must. I don't like it but Ireland aren't exactly flush with options at the moment. I like Jamie Hagan and think he's better than both Ronan Loughney and Stephen Archer but he's not international standard yet. I hate saying it but Tony Buckle is Ireland's next best tighthead.

Longer term, Ireland are in good shape at the position. Adam Macklin in Ulster is improving while Declan Fitzpatrick is a better prop than I gave him credit for. The 3 year residency rule will push Nathan White into contention and Leinster have a stream of promising tightheads. Jamie Hagan is around Fitzpatrick's level, Martin Moore is technically excellent and Tadhg Furlong could be the best of the lot. We just need second rows and inside centres and lots of them!

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

We just need second rows and inside centres and lots of them!

i think we're pretty good for second rows are we not?

 

[psychic duck]

Needs must. I don't like it but Ireland aren't exactly flush with options at the moment. I like Jamie Hagan and think he's better than both Ronan Loughney and Stephen Archer but he's not international standard yet. I hate saying it but Tony Buckle is Ireland's next best tighthead.

Longer term, Ireland are in good shape at the position. Adam Macklin in Ulster is improving while Declan Fitzpatrick is a better prop than I gave him credit for. The 3 year residency rule will push Nathan White into contention and Leinster have a stream of promising tightheads. Jamie Hagan is around Fitzpatrick's level, Martin Moore is technically excellent and Tadhg Furlong could be the best of the lot. We just need second rows and inside centres and lots of them!

True. But what makes Kidney think that Michael Bent who has just 2 Super Rugby appearances in his entire career is international standard?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

@Ulsterrugby2012
Not really. Paul O'Connell, Donncha O'Callaghan and Leo Cullen are at the end of their careers. Mike McCarthy is in his early 30s. Ireland are lacking any sort of depth between the age of Donnacha Ryan (28/29) and Iain Henderson (20). Dan Tuohy and Devin Toner (both mid-late 20s) are decent but will never be stars. Ryan Caldwell is out of sight, out of mind.

True. But what makes Kidney think that Michael Bent who has just 2 Super Rugby appearances in his entire career is ready for international rugby?

I don't know, that's why I've questioned it too! Loughney and Archer have shown time and again they're not up to it though. Hagan has just one Heineken Cup start and is less "battle hardened" than Bent at this point in the season.

 

[big ginger 8]

@Ulsterrugby2012
Not really. Paul O'Connell, Donncha O'Callaghan and Leo Cullen are at the end of their careers. Mike McCarthy is in his early 30s. Ireland are lacking any sort of depth between the age of Donnacha Ryan (28/29) and Iain Henderson (20). Dan Tuohy and Devin Toner (both mid-late 20s) are decent but will never be stars. Ryan Caldwell is out of sight, out of mind.


I don't know, that's why I've questioned it too! Loughney and Archer have shown time and again they're not up to it though. Hagan has just one Cup start and is less "battle hardened" than Bent at this point in the season.

Look at the average age of second rows at the last world cup. Locks can play at the highest level into their mid thirties. I'd say Ryan is a class act and Henderson is already able. Tuohy can also do a job and I'd lole Toner to be given more of a chance.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Look at the average age of second rows at the last world cup.

Yep. Ireland's were into their 30s and lacked dynamism. Do you think Ryan (who I agree is an excellent player), Tuohy and Henderson are enough to keep Ireland going in 2015? With injuries you need four top class players at the position who you can rotate. Ireland are, or will be, at best half way there. Toner's not good enough.

 

[big ginger 8]

Not just Ireland the likes of Thorn, Matfield, Botha, Sharpe and Williams were no spring chickens.

I do agree that its not our strongest position but it wouldn't keep me up at night either. Probably some is based on hope that at least one of Beirne, Qualter, Nagle, Foley of Qualter will follow Hendersons lead by 2015.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Slightly off topic - does anyone watch 'rugby club' on Sky? Not one mention of any other squad / team other than England which is quite ridiculous really.

 

[Peat]

In fairness I don't think Kilcoyne is a biased selection he deserves a go and is more likely to make an impact with his carrying off the bench.

Agree about the starting thing.

Oh, don't get me wrong. There's reasons for him being there - just as there's reasons for Court, such as experience in an inexperienced team. You can see the same arguments with, say, DOC vs Tuohy or ROG vs Jackson. All three go to the Munster man. The game might vindicate Kidney here but given his track record and elsewhere when it comes to tight calls, I find it really obvious that's he selecting with a fair bit of bias.

 

[coonor]

This game is where the new era of leaders have to step up. Heaslip has to have a massive game, he is pivotal. The front row will either win or lose the game. Of we can't match them up front then we have no chance. For all of Murray's flaws, we have to back him. I would have rather seen Reddan but either way scrum half is not a position of strength in Ireland.

Im quite excited about this game. I'm not expecting much but it's really a transitional team and so many questions need answering. All I know is that POC, BOD, ROG can no longer make up our core players. For so long they had been the first name on the team sheet, but now that must change.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Ryan Caldwell deserves another shot, he's been doing the business for Bath for the last two years. Hopefully Leinster will try pick him up when his contract expires, as he's exactly the kind of player we'll need when Leo hangs up his boots.

Outside of Caldwell there aren't very many credible options outside of the island at the moment. There's Tommy Hayes at Exeter , but he's well into his 30's by now. Andrew Farley is captaining Grenoble in the Top 14, but same problem there. Neither Eoin Sheriff nor James Sandford can nail down starting spots for their Premiership clubs. Robin Copeland could be an option, but he looks to be playing most of his rugby in the back row these days. Still, at 6'5 and only 25 years old he could fit the bill perfectly.

It's a shame Ian Nagle was thick and signed another contract with Munster a while back. Had he come up here he'd have seen a lot more game time and who knows where he could be in terms of development. He's still only 24, but considering the lack of rugby he's played thus far in his career I don't hold out much hope for him.

Funny that we should be in this position. It wasn't all that long ago that we had Malcom O'Kelly, Bob Casey, Trevor Brennan, Donncha O'Callaghan and Paul O'Connell all as serious international options. What we'd give to have one of those guys in their mid 20's now.

 

[big ginger 8]

Oh, don't get me wrong. There's reasons for him being there - just as there's reasons for Court, such as experience in an inexperienced team. You can see the same arguments with, say, DOC vs Tuohy or ROG vs Jackson. All three go to the Munster man. The game might vindicate Kidney here but given his track record and elsewhere when it comes to tight calls, I find it really obvious that's he selecting with a fair bit of bias.

Oh yeah think he definitely he's biased just don't think it's a big factor here. I'd have picked Tuohy and Jackson. There's a decent argument for DO'C none whatsoever for RO'G.

Ryan Caldwell deserves another shot, he's been doing the business for Bath for the last two years. Hopefully Leinster will try pick him up when his contract expires, as he's exactly the kind of player we'll need when Leo hangs up his boots.

Outside of Caldwell there aren't very many credible options outside of the island at the moment. There's Tommy Hayes at Exeter , but he's well into his 30's by now. Andrew Farley is captaining Grenoble in the Top 14, but same problem there. Neither Eoin Sheriff nor James Sandford can nail down starting spots for their Premiership clubs. Robin Copeland could be an option, but he looks to be playing most of his rugby in the back row these days. Still, at 6'5 and only 25 years old he could fit the bill perfectly.

It's a shame Ian Nagle was thick and signed another contract with Munster a while back. Had he come up here he'd have seen a lot more game time and who knows where he could be in terms of development. He's still only 24, but considering the lack of rugby he's played thus far in his career I don't hold out much hope for him.

Funny that we should be in this position. It wasn't all that long ago that we had Malcom O'Kelly, Bob Casey, Trevor Brennan, Donncha O'Callaghan and Paul O'Connell all as serious international options. What we'd give to have one of those guys in their mid 20's now.

Interesting article on Caldwell here: http://dementedmole.com/2012/11/05/...-caldwell-and-the-lessons-he-could-teach-you/

 

[psychic duck]

Ryan Caldwell deserves another shot, he's been doing the business for Bath for the last two years. Hopefully Leinster will try pick him up when his contract expires, as he's exactly the kind of player we'll need when Leo hangs up his boots.

Outside of Caldwell there aren't very many credible options outside of the island at the moment. There's Tommy Hayes at Exeter , but he's well into his 30's by now. Andrew Farley is captaining Grenoble in the Top 14, but same problem there. Neither Eoin Sheriff nor James Sandford can nail down starting spots for their Premiership clubs. Robin Copeland could be an option, but he looks to be playing most of his rugby in the back row these days. Still, at 6'5 and only 25 years old he could fit the bill perfectly.

It's a shame Ian Nagle was thick and signed another contract with Munster a while back. Had he come up here he'd have seen a lot more game time and who knows where he could be in terms of development. He's still only 24, but considering the lack of rugby he's played thus far in his career I don't hold out much hope for him.

Funny that we should be in this position. It wasn't all that long ago that we had Malcom O'Kelly, Bob Casey, Trevor Brennan, Donncha O'Callaghan and Paul O'Connell all as serious international options. What we'd give to have one of those guys in their mid 20's now.

All that depth yet somehow Trevor Hogan still managed to become a full international.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Ah now, Trev wasn't the worst. Who'd he get capped against though?