[EOYT] Ireland v Australia 16/11/13

[Darwin]

all int'l matches. It's true Folau was doing absolutely everything at a point, and I'm aware of course of their issues this year and all...but I don't think the Irish backline can come remotely close to doing what Australia did in Argentina, in NZ in Bledisloe 3, or more recently in Rome. Point made ?

Let's not forget they've scored tries in every game this year, at least one (except against he Boks). And the Australian back play is always putting something interesting together, whether they go all the way for a try or get a penalty or whatever.
Lealifano also had some awesome moments. Ashley-Cooper hasn't as good this year, but still has had some fine Wallaby moments. And just overall man, the Wallabies have managed some excellent attack, some good, and then some not so great.

Yes, Hooper has been very good, but the other loose fowards have been meh, but sometimes good too.

To me there's no question, but my stance has been declared, no need to rub it in, I'll attract more angry comments again...

The last time Ireland played Argentina (less than a year ago) they scored 7 tries. That was with a very similar backline to the one they have now (except BOD was missing). Likewise they have a very similar backline when they thumped Italy last year (again BOD was missing). That clearly shows Australia scoring a few tries against these sides is nothing special, and I see no reason why the Ireland backline couldn't score tries against them too (as they have done so recently!). While it was obvious that Ireland didn't score many tries during the 6 Nations, there were a number of reasons for this. The weather conditions in a least two of the match were atrocious (vs England and France), so were hardly conductive to backline play. I remember in the Italy game half their backline fell over with injury and they ended up with a flanker on the wing. The 6 Nations as a whole was a pretty low scoring affair (by Rugby Championship standards) - Ireland scored 5 tries and conceded 5 (similar or England 5 scored / 6 conceded, and France 6 scored / 6 conceded). The fact Australia have scored a few more tries than Ireland this season needs to be put into context of the opposition and the weather/ground condition they played under. I'm sure if Ireland had a chance to play on the hard surface under the roof in Dunedin they would score a few tries too!

Lealiifano has been a good goal-kicker this season, but offers very little with ball in hand (and has been replaced in the starting lineup by Toomua over recent weeks). If you look at the Auusie backline man-for-man they look nowhere near as dangerous as they have in recent years. Unless Genia rediscovers his form of old the only player in the Australian backline that Ireland should be remotely worried about is Israel Folau (and he is not easy to contain at the best of times!).

 

[Big Ewis]

I in deed missed the Ireland Samoa match, and must say that a diminished Samoan side or not, I was impressed with the result still. More power to Ireland.

But to nitpick every little thing I've said, every match example I've given isn't going to cut it for me, in terms of persuasion. You will not make me say I think Ireland could have scored all those tries with that athleticism, speed and accuracy and just utter ease as they did in Argentina or Italy last Saturday, and Ireland DEFINITELY does not score 3 tries in Dunedin and put 31 points on those All-Blacks.

OF COURSE the Wallabies aren't nearly as dangerous as they were some years ago, and the results have been perfectly on par with that statement for the whole of 2013. But discussion here isn't very fruitful as far as I'm concerned, with no offense meant Darwin, because to me it's clear Australia has the better backline.
It's clear Ireland doesn't have that ease, that back-play culture and could not sustain the entire Ireland team for a complete lack of strength anywhere else in the XV. Ireland does NOT drop 55 in Argentina, doesn't dismantle the fk out of the Italians in Rome, or give anything like Bledisloe 3...no, no, no, let's stop this right here shall we.

Not doubting they're capable. But they're not as good as Australia's. Bottom line, no way past that.

 

[Darwin]

I in deed missed the Ireland Samoa match, and must say that a diminished Samoan side or not, I was impressed with the result still. More power to Ireland.

But to nitpick every little thing I've said, every match example I've given isn't going to cut it for me, in terms of persuasion. You will not make me say I think Ireland could have scored all those tries with that athleticism, speed and accuracy and just utter ease as they did in Argentina or Italy last Saturday, and Ireland DEFINITELY does not score 3 tries in Dunedin and put 31 points on those All-Blacks.

OF COURSE the Wallabies aren't nearly as dangerous as they were some years ago, and the results have been perfectly on par with that statement for the whole of 2013. But discussion here isn't very fruitful as far as I'm concerned, with no offense meant Darwin, because to me it's clear Australia has the better backline.
It's clear Ireland doesn't have that ease, that back-play culture and could not sustain the entire Ireland team for a complete lack of strength anywhere else in the XV. Ireland does NOT drop 55 in Argentina, doesn't dismantle the fk out of the Italians in Rome, or give anything like Bledisloe 3...no, no, no, let's stop this right here shall we.

Not doubting they're capable. But they're not as good as Australia's. Bottom line, no way past that.

Hey? How am I 'nitpicking' by pointing out the examples you used are poor? You claimed with utmost certainty the Irish backline wouldn't be able to perform against certain teams as well as Australia had. I simply pointed out you were wrong - they have indeed performed just as well against the same sides recently. Instead of accepting you are wrong you just accuse me of 'nitpicking'. Classy.

BG8 has posted an excellent comparison between the two backlines which you have completely ignored. I assumed you were interested in debating the relative merits of the two backlines, but this is clearly not the case. You simply want to make you point, then stick your fingers in you ears and yell "lalalalalalala" whenever anyone offers a contrary opinion (and backs that point up with evidence). There is obviously no point in debating this further, as no amount of evidence will change your opinion.

Anyways...... Australia 23 named:

Israel Folau, Adam Ashley-Cooper, Tevita Kuridrani, Matt Toomua, Nick Cummins, Quade Cooper, Will Genia, James Slipper, Stephen Moore, Sekope Kepu, Rob Simmons, James Horwill, Scott Fardy, Michael Hooper, Ben Mowen (captain)
Replacements: Tatafu Polota-Nau, Benn Robinson, Paddy Ryan, Sitaleki Timani, Liam Gill, Nic White, Christian Leali'ifano, Joe Tomane

Two changes (+ one positional change) in the starting lineup, with Kepu replacing Alexander (who is being rested), and Fardy coming in Timani (with Simmons shifting back to lock). Polota-Nau & Ryan join the reserve bench. Australia will be happy to have Polota-Nau back, as he can provide real impact in the last 20 mins. The consistency in selection can only be a good thing for Australia - hopefully they have started to develop some strong combinations in the backline.

 

[Big Ewis]

Oh Lord...dear God give me the patience.
I have read BG8's thing, I have read your comments, but if you will allow it - only if you will allow it - I'd like to still believe firmly the Australian back line is quite superior to the Irish. But only if you will allow it, if not I will immediately switch to agreeing with both of you guys' opinions.

"No amount of evidence will change my opinion" because I really don't think the Irish back line is better or as good. It has nothing to do with not admitting I'm wrong, I don't think I am, that's all...you know Darwin, I have bigger things to worry about these days than what back line is better, if I'm not sleeping straight away these days it's not because of this
I just really think the Australian backs are better. Ireland wouldn't do what the Aussies managed this year, at very least in this guy's mind...

There is no information you can give me that I'm completely unaware of, I've watched all matches by both teams this year (except IRE SAM)...but anyways, you think Ireland have as good a back line I understand, and so does the other user. Alright...we disagree then, ok. Does that need to become a seething issue ? No it doesn't, quite far from it.

EDIT: oh and it's not just the individuals, it's not about just a head-to-head comparison, the Wallabies backs obviously have a more fluid passing game, better combinations and a more accurate sense of execution.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Team is out yo:

15) Kearney
14) Bowe
13) O'Driscoll
12) Marshall
11) McFadden
10) Sexton
9) Reddan
8) Heaslip
7) O'Brien
6) O'Mahony
5) O'Connell
4) Toner
3) Ross
2) Best
1) Healy

 

[Conal]

15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 47
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 52
13. Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) 126
12. Luke Marshall (Ballinahinch/Ulster) 3
11. Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 20
10. Johnny Sexton (Racing Metro) 36
9. Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster) 51
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) 58
7. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster) 28
6. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 17
5. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) 86
4. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 8
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 32
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) 68
1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 40
REPLACEMENTS
16. Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster) 28
17. Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster) 1
18. Stephen Archer (Cork Constitution/Munster) 1
19. Mike McCarthy (Leinster) 13
20. Kevin McLaughlin (St Mary's College/Leinster) 6
21. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 20
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster) 5
23. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) 2

archer and reddan
really not sue about those two

 

[lynam1104]

Not sure on Reddan as I can't see how he brings anything Muarry can't atm. Previously you could have argued Muarry's service form the ruck was a bit slow and he was ponderous at time but over the last 6 months thats really improved and I think SOB try last week was a great example of that. On Archer, not entirely sure why but seeing as Aussie can't scrum anyway he'll be fine.

Paddy unlucky to miss out but the reasoning is very understandable, looking forward to seeing that rivalry develop over the years.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Well obviously the bench is a bit weaker than the last day out, but in exchange you get O'Connell, Healy and O'Brien in your starting line up, as well as Johnny 10. Cronin, McGrath, Murray and Madigan should all be able to come on and liven things up if so required, while it's nice to see another young outside back get a shot in Robbie Henshaw. McCarthy and McLaughlin will be useful should we need to see out a tight game, while Archer adds more in the loose than Fitzpatrick and his scrummaging ability will be less important against a weak Australian unit.

It's interesting to see big Dev start alongside Paulie. One would imagine what we'd lose in the scrum we'll gain back comfortably in the line out. Makes sense I guess, seeing as we can expect the Australians to be stronger in that department.

I like the look of that back line. Give me Simon Zebo over Ferg and you have my ideal line up. Molto bene.

 

[Big Ewis]

I like the look of that back line. Give me Simon Zebo over Ferg and you have my ideal line up. Molto bene.

aaaaaaahh, give this man an award, a medal, anything !!!! You have a bright, bright future on this thread and beyond sonny ! Molto bene, si !

 

[Conal]

interesting with sticking with toner.

does he not trust poc to last the game? (regarding lineouts)

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Not sure on Reddan as I can't see how he brings anything Muarry can't atm. Previously you could have argued Muarry's service form the ruck was a bit slow and he was ponderous at time but over the last 6 months thats really improved and I think SOB try last week was a great example of that. On Archer, not entirely sure why but seeing as Aussie can't scrum anyway he'll be fine.

Paddy unlucky to miss out but the reasoning is very understandable, looking forward to seeing that rivalry develop over the years.

Disagree, Murray's service was poor against Samoa and I saw a huge improvement in the pace of the game when Reddan cane on. Any half decent 9 would have made that pass for the try.


I'd have picked Murray though, Australia are the one team I'd like a physical 9 to play against.

 

[coonor]

I think Schmidt's player rotations policy is evident here. Positions where a few players are tightly competing are where changes have occurred. Take for example Reddan and Murray. Despite the latter solid performance last week and general improvement, its clear that Schmidt want to see the combination of Sexton and Reddan aswell. The selection of Marshall instead of D'Aarcy, aswell as Henshaw and Archer clearly shows Schmidt is giving players opportunities despite performance of competing players. Its a good move especially with the All Blacks coming up. We need to see different combinations and assess which players are best equipped to tackle different jobs. One of Ireland problems under Kidney was the failure to blood any new players until their services were required due to either injury or ban. At that stage new players would often find themselves unprepared. This selection is far more progressive particularly with Schmidt's use of the bench.

 

[profitius]

It looks like Schmidt is looking to take on the Aussies at their own game. Reddan in their is for one thing.. to things speed up!


Its good to see some rotation. Even if people don't agree its the best team, at least its keeping everyone on their toes and the squad happy.

 

[Darwin]

Oh Lord...dear God give me the patience.
I have read BG8's thing, I have read your comments, but if you will allow it - only if you will allow it - I'd like to still believe firmly the Australian back line is quite superior to the Irish. But only if you will allow it, if not I will immediately switch to agreeing with both of you guys' opinions.

"No amount of evidence will change my opinion" because I really don't think the Irish back line is better or as good. It has nothing to do with not admitting I'm wrong, I don't think I am, that's all...you know Darwin, I have bigger things to worry about these days than what back line is better, if I'm not sleeping straight away these days it's not because of this
I just really think the Australian backs are better. Ireland wouldn't do what the Aussies managed this year, at very least in this guy's mind...

There is no information you can give me that I'm completely unaware of, I've watched all matches by both teams this year (except IRE SAM)...but anyways, you think Ireland have as good a back line I understand, and so does the other user. Alright...we disagree then, ok. Does that need to become a seething issue ? No it doesn't, quite far from it.

Wow. Just wow. Relax man. It is going to be ok

No-one is saying you aren't entitled to your opinion. It doesn't bother me in the least what you believe. I was simply trying to debate the issue. That is kind-of the point of these forums. If you are not interested in discussing opinions why do you even bother coming on these forums?

EDIT: oh and it's not just the individuals, it's not about just a head-to-head comparison, the Wallabies backs obviously have a more fluid passing game, better combinations and a more accurate sense of execution.

That is much better. You actually addressed the issues. Bravo While I agree it is not all about individuals, I don't agree Australia have a more fluid passing game nor better combinations (though they probably do have a better sense of execution). The main problem with the Wallabies backline this season has been the fluidity of their passing game (or lack there-of). A typical backline play involves Genia passing the ball to Cooper, who shuffles a few steps sideways before shoveling it on to Toomua. By now the opposition defense is on top of the backline and Toomua gets tackled. When the ball does get out as far as Kuridrani it doesn't go any further as Kuridrani has no passing game to speak of. One of the major problems is the lack of established combinations. Genia and Cooper are the only established combination, but unfortunately Genia has been in horrible form for most of the year. Cooper doesn't seem to know what to do with another play-maker outside him, while Toomua isn't really that familiar with his role in the midfield. Kuridrani has had some good moments but drifts in an out of games, and as I mentioned above doesn't really have a passing game to speak of. The back three look as though they have just meet each other - there is no real team-work, they just rely on the individual brilliance of Folau. Australia only really looked dangerous this season in broken play, as they still have a number of players who can be a real handful in one-on-one situations. If Genia and Cooper can fire they could casue Ireland some problems, however if the continue to play as they have for most of the season the Irish backline should be able to contain them.

Anyways...
Pretty strong looking Irish side in my opinion. Though I'm not a big fan of Murray I'm surprised to see Reddan back in the starting lineup, but I haven't seen a lot of his play this season.

 

[Big Ewis]

Darwin: you probably don't notice it, but you come out as aggressive. It's one thing to be frustrated by another user's posting, it's another to be downright antipathetic, it doesn't make me want to respond as I've been respectful and in-line myself. That's number one. I lose interest if I'm treated like shyt.

I've addressed the issue, "Bravo " ?? I mean, how do you think I'm considering you in my mind right now ? Take a wild guess.
If you can't respect someone, no matter if his comments seem stubborn or wtvr, then you shouldn't talk yourself. That's what forums are for, gathered and positive discussion.
Just as a retort to your statements.

Now about the Wallabies and Irish: I addressed the issues earlier when I said I saw all matches from both sides in 2013 and the Wallabies are more fluid, quicker, have some better athletes...etc..., that's well enough.
You say "Australia only looked dangerous when..." but Australia have managed to put 50 points on two Tier 1 nations already, and in their own backyard. Considering how they struggled (not as much as expected though) against those two Latin nations in the scrum and how their forwards looked meh, it comes right down to the backs' sheer, raw ability to produce tries. Though both nations are at a low, it's still 50 in their town. Major props to Australia. Again - *again* - not something I see Ireland doing with their back-line from what I've seen all year long. Oh, Beale had his moments this year too in terms of back play.
And I don't even understand how we're debating whether Ireland goes to NZ and drops 33 points and 3 tries. And there was some very good, even excellent backs play and impressive combination work which never translated into tries throughout their journey this year...not something I've seen Ireland come close to, but I feel like we're on different planets.

Anyways:
Of course the Wallabies struggled all year long, it's their worst year ever surely. The loosies aren't where they were just some years ago, and neither are their backs while we're at it. Their scrum still sucks (I'm posting a thread about an article on that).
I'm watching Tri-Nation matches from around 2009-2011. There are two matches they play in S.A. from 2010 where they're up like 20-6 in 10 minutes and score like 4 consecutive tries in the first half, both very similar games...they were so silky, beautiful to watch. Such a shame they dismantled progressively...Elsom, Mitchell, Sharpie, then Pocock to injury...O'Connor and his teen angst. Giteau, Berrick Barnes, on-form AACooper+Genia+Q.Cooper+Beale.......

Eager to see how this one goes right here. You were mentioning class Darwin, I trust you won't give me a big "I told you so" if things go Ireland's backs' way
May the best team win. I hope it's as entertaining as we'd imagine.

 

[Darwin]

Darwin: you probably don't notice it, but you come out as aggressive. It's one thing to be frustrated by another user's posting, it's another to be downright antipathetic, it doesn't make me want to respond as I've been respectful and in-line myself. That's number one. I lose interest if I'm treated like shyt.

I've addressed the issue, "Bravo " ?? I mean, how do you think I'm considering you in my mind right now ? Take a wild guess.
If you can't respect someone, no matter if his comments seem stubborn or wtvr, then you shouldn't talk yourself. That's what forums are for, gathered and positive discussion.
Just as a retort to your statements.

Now about the Wallabies and Irish: I addressed the issues earlier when I said I saw all matches from both sides in 2013 and the Wallabies are more fluid, quicker, have some better athletes...etc..., that's well enough.
You say "Australia only looked dangerous when..." but Australia have managed to put 50 points on two Tier 1 nations already, and in their own backyard. Considering how they struggled (not as much as expected though) against those two Latin nations in the scrum and how their forwards looked meh, it comes right down to the backs' sheer, raw ability to produce tries. Though both nations are at a low, it's still 50 in their town. Major props to Australia. Again - *again* - not something I see Ireland doing with their back-line from what I've seen all year long. Oh, Beale had his moments this year too in terms of back play.
And I don't even understand how we're debating whether Ireland goes to NZ and drops 33 points and 3 tries. And there was some very good, even excellent backs play and impressive combination work which never translated into tries throughout their journey this year...not something I've seen Ireland come close to, but I feel like we're on different planets.

Anyways:
Of course the Wallabies struggled all year long, it's their worst year ever surely. The loosies aren't where they were just some years ago, and neither are their backs while we're at it. Their scrum still sucks (I'm posting a thread about an article on that).
I'm watching Tri-Nation matches from around 2009-2011. There are two matches they play in S.A. from 2010 where they're up like 20-6 in 10 minutes and score like 4 consecutive tries in the first half, both very similar games...they were so silky, beautiful to watch. Such a shame they dismantled progressively...Elsom, Mitchell, Sharpie, then Pocock to injury...O'Connor and his teen angst. Giteau, Berrick Barnes, on-form AACooper+Genia+Q.Cooper+Beale.......

Eager to see how this one goes right here. You were mentioning class Darwin, I trust you won't give me a big "I told you so" if things go Ireland's backs' way
May the best team win. I hope it's as entertaining as we'd imagine.

:lol: You find people disagreeing with you aggressive? If you find my post aggressive there is no wonder you seem to have so many issues on these forums. It was slightly condescending, but that is often the best way to deal with nonsensical posts. Why do you think you seem to get into arguments an awful lot on these forums? Do you simply believe the majority of posters are a bunch of utter pricks? That could be the case, but maybe - just maybe - it has something to do with the way you express yourself. You make bold claims and when anyone disagrees with them you go all defensive, completely ignore the other persons point of view, then accuse people of "nitpicking" and being aggressive. It is fine to have an opinion on something, but there is no reason to go all defensive when someone offers a contrary opinion. Also, starting posts with comments like "Oh Lord...dear God give me the patience" isn't going to make you any friends

Anyways..... You think Beale has had his moments this year for Australia this season? He has barely played for the Wallabies this year. He has had two starts for the Wallabies against the Lions - he was anonymous in the 2nd test and pretty quiet in the 3rd. If he has been one of the standout backs for the Wallabies this season it sort of reinforces my point that the Wallabies backline hasn't been that good this season! There is probably not much point in discussing this further - we will find out a lot more when the two sides meet in a couple of days time.

Random question for Irish posters: What is Luke Marshall like on defense? Kuridrani is limited in some ways, but he does run good angles at times and is big, strong, and quite quick. I wonder whether we will see Australia using Kuridrani cutting back on the angle to target the inexperienced Marshall on defense.

 

[profitius]

Random question for Irish posters: What is Luke Marshall like on defense? Kuridrani is limited in some ways, but he does run good angles at times and is big, strong, and quite quick. I wonder whether we will see Australia using Kuridrani cutting back on the angle to target the inexperienced Marshall on defense.

He is a solid defender, doesn't miss many tackles either. He is a good attacker too, kind of like a younger version of D'Arcy.

 

[Darwin]

He is a solid defender, doesn't miss many tackles either. He is a good attacker too, kind of like a younger version of D'Arcy.

Thanks. From the little I have seen of him he looks to have the size and skills to be a good test midfielder. It is good to see Ireland developing some young alternatives in the midfield, as I don't imagine D'Arcy and O'Driscoll will last forever! Is there a logical replacement for BOD when he eventually retires?

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Thanks. From the little I have seen of him he looks to have the size and skills to be a good test midfielder. It is good to see Ireland developing some young alternatives in the midfield, as I don't imagine D'Arcy and O'Driscoll will last forever! Is there a logical replacement for BOD when he eventually retires?

Yeah Jared Payne from Ulster is irish qualified next season, plays 13/15 and is a more than adequate replacement, runs some excellent lines. & it's good since he and Marshall play together.

 

[lynam1104]

Disagree, Murray's service was poor against Samoa and I saw a huge improvement in the pace of the game when Reddan cane on. Any half decent 9 would have made that pass for the try.


I'd have picked Murray though, Australia are the one team I'd like a physical 9 to play against.

I can see what you mean, he has more to improve on but in the last two years I don't think he would've made that pass. I would like to see Murray have a go at Genia but in the RWC game Redden was starting and doing a good job of putting pressure on Genia. Anyway we don't lose a whole lot.