EOYT: England vs South Africa, 24/11/2012

[TRF_heineken]

My Bok team for the weekend would be:

1. Guthro Steenkamp
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Jannie Du Plessis
4. Eben Etzebeth (if not cited) otherwise Willem Alberts
5. Juandre Kruger
6. Francois Louw
7. Willem Alberts/Marcell Coetzee
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Jano Vermaak
10. Pat Lambie
11. Lwazi Mvovo
12. JDV
13. JDJ
14. Francois Hougaard
15. Jaco Taute

16. Scalk Brits
17. Heinke van der Merwe
18. Pat Cilliers
19. Franco van der Merwe
20. Marcell Coetzee/Arno Botha
21. Ruan Pienaar
22. Morne Steyn
23. Zane Kirchner

If JP is fit, then swap Mvovo with Hougie and put JP at 14.

There isn't much I would change to the Bok team that played against Scotland, it's just a matter of them putting in a total 80 minute performance and not a 40 like vs Ireland and Scotland.

As always there won't be too much motivation needed for the Boks, but the draw in PE will surely put some fire under their asses.

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[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

My changes for the game would be :

Morgan in for Waldrom
Corbs in for Marler
Bench Burns and ditch Farrell

Going to be a tougher challenge then Australia, if we improve on our discipline from last time out I think we can put up a good contest.

Agree with this...

Would be my changes too plus I would stick Robshaw at 6 and give Wood a run at 7, meaning Johnson misses out on a starting berth.

I don't think these changes will be made. Providing he is fit enough, Corbs will play. I think he is a very important player for this England set up.

And with this.

I'd go as far as to say that Corbisiero playing would give us an edge: Even though its only one change, a propping squad of 1.Corbisiero, 3. Cole 16. Marler, 18.Vunipola feeels tons better than 1.Marler, 3.Cole 16. Wilson, 18.Vunipola. Does anyone know if Corbs is expected to be fit? Also, any news on Jonathan Joseph? If fit, I'd bring him in for Brown.

As regards Farrell, I'd rather he went down to Saxons but theres just no way as he hasnt had much chance to show how average he is, apart from that hospital pass to Tuilagi.

Oh, also: If we're looking for an in-form English 8, look no further than this guy here

Not saying he's 100%... but he's getting bloody close wth recent performances.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Marler has strained his knee, according to the BBC, so will probably miss the SA game.
I'd start Vunipola and bench Corbs (Corbs has only played twice since a lengthy lay off, so wouldn't want to rush him back.)

Agree with the suggested changes above, as well as Wood starting/Robshaw at 6.

 

[Peat]

Statements about the ***anic and it's deckchairs spring to mind - we need to match them for physicality and learn to attack and I don't think both are going to happen in the space of a week. Right pack selection and it seems vaguely possible, but as long as we have Barritt as he's currently playing at 12, it's not good.

I don't include switching Robshaw to 6 for Wood as a good change. Robshaw was very good against them at 7 in the summer - one bad game and we move him over for a man who's no natural openside himself? That's pretty knee-jerk unless you never believed in him to begin with, and I'm not sure why you'd believe in Wood either. Pray for Kvesic to fulfil his potential or Armitage to come home.

And speaking of potential, I'd like to see Launchbury start. Do that, and the prospect of grinding out a win comes on. Might lead to us getting a decent pack I suppose...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd take Gibson over Kvesic, who hasn't looked as good playing senior rugby as Gibson has.
Wood may not be a "natural 7", but he's still a better one than Robshaw (who, I agree has done a good job there for England, bar being outshone by a true 7 on the weekend).
A 6.75 rather than 6...
Robshaw is also a better 6 than Johnson, imo (though I'm a fan of Johnson).

Read an article about Armitage/Toulon on the beeb earlier, basically a nothing story saying how he wants to play for England etc. and how he hopes England/Toulon can come to an agreement. Unfortunately I can't see that happening/him being selected while in France. I'd also be very surprised if he came back to England.



Alternatively: Just bring in Dave "best 7 in Europe" Seymour, at last.
Carl Fearns, too.

 

[Peat]

Gibson's looked better as a player, not sure he's looked as natural a 7 though. I am a big fan of Gibson, would be happy to see him involved - likewise Fearns.

I don't agree with Wood being a better 7 than Robshaw. I also don't agree with Robshaw as a 7 carrying the can for a generally poor pack performance in terms of freeing up the ball; individual casualties from that should start with Palmer and Marler, much as I like both players. And yeah, Robshaw's a better 6 than Johnson. Not hard, without wishing to be too down on a fine player. I'd play Robshaw and Wood, but Wood would be at 6. Robshaw's summer performances have earned him the right to keep going at 7 for this window imo.

As for Armitage - think he's sod out of luck, as you say, although I think Lancaster should simply call him up when available. At the very least get him training with the squad again and get a better look.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

SA to win by 10 or more.

We don't have the team mentality to win, our captain doesn't know how to win games (one would have thought after Quins vs Conaught last Heinekin season he would know the importance of kicking for posts), and over the teamsheet we don't have any outstanding players that SA can't match.

I don't think South Africa are miles better than us player for player, but they have a far better team ethos, took us in the summer, and have loads of experience which should carry them through.

LOL, you'll find all us SA'ns complaining about the experienced guys we have there;

M Steyn, Hougaard, CJ van der Linde, Pienaar, Kirchner, JdV all off form or just not test material in the cases of vd Linde and Kirchner. Granted we do have able experienced players which should form the core of our team but they are all out injured; B Du Plessis, Beast, F Steyn, B Habana and looks like JP also now. The only experienced player that shouldn't play that is injured is Spies while the only experienced player that ought to be there ATM is J du Plessis.

My Bok team for the weekend would be:

1. Guthro Steenkamp
2. Adriaan Strauss
3. Jannie Du Plessis
4. Eben Etzebeth (if not cited) otherwise Willem Alberts
5. Juandre Kruger
6. Francois Louw
7. Willem Alberts/Marcell Coetzee
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Jano Vermaak
10. Pat Lambie
11. Lwazi Mvovo
12. JDV
13. JDJ
14. Francois Hougaard
15. Jaco Taute

16. Scalk Brits
17. Heinke van der Merwe
18. Pat Cilliers
19. Franco van der Merwe
20. Marcell Coetzee/Arno Botha
21. Ruan Pienaar
22. Morne Steyn
23. Zane Kirchner

If JP is fit, then swap Mvovo with Hougie and put JP at 14.

There isn't much I would change to the Bok team that played against Scotland, it's just a matter of them putting in a total 80 minute performance and not a 40 like vs Ireland and Scotland.

As always there won't be too much motivation needed for the Boks, but the draw in PE will surely put some fire under their asses.

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Agree with that team (considering availability) except at lock I'd prefer Franco van der Merwe to start at 5 ahead of Kruger and I'd have Flip van der Merwe at 4 if Etzebeth is out. WTF? Eye gouging? If there's something in it and if there is any form of intent I'd be VERY dissapointed.

 

[Gena_ZA]

Here is the incident

http://www.supersport.com/rugby/springboks/news/121119/Etzebeth_citing_a_blow_for_Boks

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Peat, personally my suggestion to shift Robshaw across isn't based on me thnking hes inadequate at 7, it's not even about him at all for me....it's about trying to get Wood in over Johnson. I don't mean any disrespect to Johnson at all, very good player, but I like what Wood brings - an athleticism and an alert rugby brain.

As regards who plays where I guess 'd be happy with either - on the face of it both Robshaw and Wood now play 7 for their clubs. But Perhaps I agree with you Peat - why shift Robshaw now when he's been shoe-horned in at 7 both for quins and England. Looking back, Tom Wood played 6 for England in the six nations 2011 and was a key player in that tournament win - he can't be that bad there! Also, he's been coming on in place of Johnson at 6 and doing well there. Either way, I'd like to see him given a go.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Here is the incident

http://www.supersport.com/rugby/springboks/news/121119/Etzebeth_citing_a_blow_for_Boks

Well he certainly has Laidlaw in a headlock which is stupid, illegal and just too dangerous (as you can't control the forces generated by others joining the fray) and deserves a citing and penalty in and of itself IMO. Eye-gouging though? Nah.

Etzebeth should watch the discipline and I hope HM addresses this now. We know our players won't get any favors and we aren't doing ourselves any favors. Bakkies took that silly idea of being an 'enforcer' and ruined his game by playing the man and not the game and I hope Etzebeth doesn't go the same route and he shouldn't be influenced by people telling him to pick up that 'mantle'; this is where HM needs to come in.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well he certainly has Laidlaw in a headlock which is stupid, illegal and just too dangerous (as you can't control the forces generated by others joining the fray) and deserves a citing and penalty in and of itself IMO. Eye-gouging though? Nah.

Etzebeth should watch the discipline and I hope HM addresses this now. We know our players won't get any favors and we aren't doing ourselves any favors. Bakkies took that silly idea of being an 'enforcer' and ruined his game by playing the man and not the game and I hope Etzebeth doesn't go the same route and he shouldn't be influenced by people telling him to pick up that 'mantle'; this is where HM needs to come in.

They have showed that clip all morning on SS Blitz. and zoomed in. It looks like as soon as he realised his hands were in the player's face, that he moved it immediately. Headlock yes, eye-gouging No F-ing way!!

There is no way that HM will take out Juandre Kruger of the starting 15, especially if Etzebeth can't play. Juandre is the line-out caller and a very good one at that. Strauss and Juandre have a good connection at line-out time along with Eben, and it would be crazy to take Juandre out as well. That being said, I'd love to see Franco have a go, his versatility could really bolster the forwards even more than they already are.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

They have showed that clip all morning on SS Blitz. and zoomed in. It looks like as soon as he realised his hands were in the player's face, that he moved it immediately. Headlock yes, eye-gouging No F-ing way!!

There is no way that HM will take out Juandre Kruger of the starting 15, especially if Etzebeth can't play. Juandre is the line-out caller and a very good one at that. Strauss and Juandre have a good connection at line-out time along with Eben, and it would be crazy to take Juandre out as well. That being said, I'd love to see Franco have a go, his versatility could really bolster the forwards even more than they already are.

Yeah, no way is that an attempt at gouging. Though I think there is no malicious intent (though the headlock is dangerous!) he did have his hand near the guy's face and with the farcical calls we've seen already I wouldn't be surprised by anything.

How does it work though WRT the complaint lodged? I mean, if he does get cleared of gouging (which he should) does that mean he gets off or can they 'downgrade' it to an illegal headlock? Somehow I feel that he should get off totally because I feel the wrong claim has been made against him IE the citing commisioner should have used the sense God presumably gave him and tried for the actual infringment- I'm assuming here that a headlock is a red-card offense (if it isn't it should be!)- rather than very much push his luck and put a young player's reputation and livelyhood at stake.

For the sake of disruptions I can understand not moving Juandre out but can you imagine our general game with Franco there as well!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The video's not available for me (presumably only for those in SA), but if his fingers go anywhere near the players eyes he'll cop a ban regardless for "making contact with the eyes".
Seen a fair few bans given out for accidental contact, they're a lot shorter than intentional, but still bas.

 

[Standardprocedure]

I'd go with Vunipola to start over Marler - Mako offers more in the scrum which you need against the Boks. I'd also switch Wood and Johnson over too - Johnson's not done much wrong, but Wood needs his chance at a start to see if he can be better that Johnson (I suspect he can). Waldrom needs to make way for Morgan (is Morgan really out of favour, as I'd read somewhere else?) and I'd arguably give Alex Goode the 10 shirt, because I honestly don't believe teams see Flood's name on a team sheet and think that they need to worry about him.

 

[Teh Mite]

.

 

[mstar]

I agree, if Lancaster wants to stop the rot he needs to freshen up the side.

Agree WOOD should get his chance and let's see how he performs differently than Tom J.
My problem is more that what Wood offers makes him more similar to Robshaw.
Tom J, offers speed which we don't have in that position as TOm Croft is injured.
We always more dangerous when we have a speedy 6 or 7 who can run pass the forwards/backs
(e.g Croft's try against france as an example).

But like to see Wood back or even Haskell. He performed great in the 3rd test unbelievable tackle rate and brings the physicality that neither Robshaw/Wood/Tom j bring and it worked in the 3rd test.

I am still not convinced with Sharples hm....

Goode seems to be found out a little against clever(er) sides/players so lets give him another try see what he can do. He gives us another dimension which is positive.

I like to see Corbs in as i believe he has a better all round game then Vunipola, especially around the park.

Also like to see Launchbury come in for Palmer. If lancaster saw "something" in the 2 days he was with the EPS and sent Botha packing home then time to bring him in. Palmer has had 2 opportunities and he hasn't been on fire has he?

We really need COurtney Lawes back as i think he bring us another "hard edge" we miss with palmer and parling. Anyone know when Lawes be back? i thought he be playing for Northampton last weekend is his injury worse than originally thought?

 

[Teh Mite]

Robshaw: Big Lump, therefore a 6. Unusually is fairly quick and will go to the floor when needed, but is better used to hound breakdowns.
Johnson: Everything Robshaw does, halved.
Wood: Fast, Enjoys dining on scrum-halves, wins turnovers on the floor. An out-and-out openside.
Haskell: Jack of all trades, master of none. Fairly Fast, Reasonably Strong, Adequate in the turnover. The poor-Mans Dallaglio we always thought he'd eventually become (before he turned crap). Would select as 2nd choice at any position.Best choice now for the 8 shirt, where he's at his best anyway.
Morgan: A body the size of a dinosour and a brain to match. Runs fast and acts a good link man. Best option available at 8.
Waldrum: A fat, slow, Leicester playing Kiwi who as as much business playing for England as I do for New Zealand.
Easter: The "form 8" who's can't & won't get another chance for England.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Seeing as HM doesn't like to make changes and we are quite likely to be without both Etzebeth who might cop a 1 match ban and Pietersen I'd expect the following Bok B team to play;

1 Steenkamp (A team; Beast)
2 Strauss (A team; Bismarck)
3 Du Plessis
4 Van der Merwe (A team; Etzebeth)
5 Kruger (A team; Bekker)
6 FLouw (A team; Burger/Brussow?)
7 Alberts (Smith although we can probably write him off by now?
8 Vermeulen
9 Pienaar (Vermaak! or anyone else in SA; Van Zyl and Reinach the form 9's)
10 Lambie (A team; Goosen)
11 Hougaard (A team; Habs)
12 JdV (A team; F Steyn)
13 JdJ
14 ? surely not Taute ? (A team; Pietersen)
15 Kirchner (A team; Ludik/Taute)

TBH I'd rather see JdJ shift to 14 with tatue at 13 than see him being played out of position in yet another position. That's if one of Mapoe, Mvovo or Rhule don't get the nod which HM has looked reluctant to do; why bring 3 extra wingers if you are going to play other players out of position on the wing rather?

Surely we won't see CJ van der Linde anywhere near a Bok jersey again starting on the weekend? It would have made a lot more sense to call in Marcell van der Merwe when it became clear we needed another prop.



Good enough to beat England at home? Only if they play into our hands IMO. Which is quite likely actually

 

[Gena_ZA]

Golden Lions prop JC Janse van Rensburg will fly to London on Tuesday evening to replace the injured CJ van der Linde in the Springbok squad.

F-yeah, eventually

 

[Standardprocedure]

Also like to see Launchbury come in for Palmer.

Yes - I agree. Palmer has been very quiet over the past two weeks, esp in the loose. He may be doing the hard work without being noticed (a la Richard Hill), but I doubt it so give Launchbury a run - with Palmer on the bench to shore things up if Launchbury implodes on the big occasion against big opposition (which I doubt)