[EOYT] England vs New Zealand 16/11/13

[Aristodemus]

Really I would be a bit embarassed by all the diving going on, I thought we were playing the Italian soccer team for a minute (firmly believe that people milking penalties should be cited and banned for a game)and the amount of sheparding I wont get into.

On the whole it was exactly as expected from the All Blacks constant attack at the expense of solid defense fortunately we attacked better than you defended but it isn't a great way to play rugby and it will come unstuck sooner or later.

On the whole I just do not think the All Blacks played very well.

I'm not embarrassed by the All Blacks diving and I think it is unfair for you to compare them to the Italian football team.

 

[Zapphod]

Great game of rugby. On balance, the all blacks deserved the win but, considering he injuries, England can take a lot of heart from their performance.

I was very disappointed by the impact of the English subs. The trio of Youngs, Parling and Youngs were far from their best and Flood was ineffective. A bad outing for the Tigers cohort.

Why did the AllBlacks stop their wide-wide game that was so effective in the first quarter? Is it because they just could keep the intensity up?

I am not 100% convinced that the All Blacks have any tactics, ever since the South African match it has just been an exercise in throwing the ball around until someone either scores or screws up, essentially 15 man 7s rugby.

(I really should have stayed out of this thread as I don't think a lot of the current AB game and I would sooner see Australia win the next 30 World Cups than England score a try)

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I am not 100% convinced that the All Blacks have any tactics, ever since the South African match it has just been an exercise in throwing the ball around until someone either scores or screws up, essentially 15 man 7s rugby.

(I really should have stayed out of this thread as I don't think a lot of the current AB game and I would sooner see Australia win the next 30 World Cups than England score a try)

Well England have scored a try so why don't you go and cry somewhere?

 

[ForensicShoe]

Was pretty happy with that performance. After that second-half against Argentina last week, the lads really surprised me. Once our missing players are back I can see us challenging for the Six Nations crown, hopefully putting a good 30 on Wales in the process

 

[Big Ewis]

England got very lucky, and some calls just weren't made against them. I recall another obstruction during some counter with 12trees being protected by some other white shirt.
England have been getting away with - *a lot* in these Autumn internationals. That's just the objective truth. I wish I were English so ppl would attribute more credibility into what I'm saying. But it's been awkwardly unfair for Australia and NZ this November.

Anyways:
- All-Blacks: are frail psychologically. I understand the pressure is immense beyond immensity for them because they *must* win every single test, but in Twickenham they have a complex now. Last year they looked weird and weak, something was very obviously amiss. I buy the poisoning thing. Because of that one seemingly random bump on the road, they were today in the downward spiral of a mental complex.

- England: some excellent play. The defense still isn't as good as other sides, France defended the All-Blacks suffocatingly last week to the point where people didn't recognize them. Today, they were recognizable, but limited by very intense and organized English play. But the attack still is not very entertaining to watch: not that France are marvelous these days, but on the topic of England, England are similar to S.A. Very powerful, but they throw themselves at the opponent, build 20 phases each trip down the NZ side, and finally get a penalty and kick in 3, or lose the ball because they can't string more than 5 passes together.
The maul is powerful though, and they looked very strong and imposing with those waves, as one-dimensional and perhaps boring as they were; those white bodies thrown at the black defense made NZ move backwards with every impact.

Scrums looked very handsome for England early, but NZ got a few powerful pushes themselves.

All in all, sorry England for my anti-Englishness but I'm just stating what's on my mind: England have benefited of 7 illegal points and de facto a victory against the Green and Gold, and if not for the most amazing mistake in Kieran Read's career should have been try-less the whole 80 minutes, with not many other real chances to score.

And that comment from both English commentators was despicable: they called that Launchbury try a due for not getting the try previously on that collapsing maul over the line. I've seen a TON of tries not called because of that, including, against those very All-Blacks ourselves last week in Paris. There is no "due", and in fact for this particular case, it's the exact opposite: England couldn't have dreamed of such a mistake 1 meter from the try line. No team would, and not against the Blacks.

All-Blacks: you guys sure are havin trouble playing in Europe, ay. Still 3 tries here.

England are powerful but boring, but are a formidable foe and I'm eager to see what France will manage in the opener next Feb.
Not being negative-only on purpose, but I wouldn't be near satisfied would I be either English or NZ'er today, that's for sure.

 

[Largejanner]

I`m not a Celt, so don`t usually do 'glorious defeat' but that felt good. If our lineout hadn't gone to rat**** in the last 20 mins then we could have easily won. More convinced than ever that England come 2015 will be the only NH side that`ll cut the mustard against the AB`s and SA.
Real progress made today.

 

[Largejanner]

England got very lucky, and some calls just weren't made against them. I recall another obstruction during some counter with 12trees being protected by some other white shirt.
England have been getting away with - *a lot* in these Autumn internationals. That's just the objective truth. I wish I were English so ppl would attribute more credibility into what I'm saying. But it's been awkwardly unfair for Australia and NZ this November.

Anyways:
- All-Blacks: are frail psychologically. I understand the pressure is immense beyond immensity for them because they *must* win every single test, but in Twickenham they have a complex now. Last year they looked weird and weak, something was very obviously amiss. I buy the poisoning thing. Because of that one seemingly random bump on the road, they were today in the downward spiral of a mental complex.

- England: some excellent play. The defense still isn't as good as other sides, France defended the All-Blacks suffocatingly last week to the point where people didn't recognize them. Today, they were recognizable, but limited by very intense and organized English play. But the attack still is not very entertaining to watch: not that France are marvelous these days, but on the topic of England, England are similar to S.A. Very powerful, but they throw themselves at the opponent, build 20 phases each trip down the NZ side, and finally get a penalty and kick in 3, or lose the ball because they can't string more than 5 passes together.
The maul is powerful though, and they looked very strong and imposing with those waves, as one-dimensional and perhaps boring as they were; those white bodies thrown at the black defense made NZ move backwards with every impact.

Scrums looked very handsome for England early, but NZ got a few powerful pushes themselves.

All in all, sorry England for my anti-Englishness but I'm just stating what's on my mind: England have benefited of 7 illegal points and de facto a victory against the Green and Gold, and if not for the most amazing mistake in Kieran Read's career should have been try-less the whole 80 minutes, with not many other real chances to score.

And that comment from both English commentators was despicable: they called that Launchbury try a due for not getting the try previously on that collapsing maul over the line. I've seen a TON of tries not called because of that, including, against those very All-Blacks ourselves last week in Paris. There is no "due", and in fact for this particular case, it's the exact opposite: England couldn't have dreamed of such a mistake 1 meter from the try line. No team would, and not against the Blacks.

All-Blacks: you guys sure are havin trouble playing in Europe, ay. Still 3 tries here.

England are powerful but boring, but are a formidable foe and I'm eager to see what France will manage in the opener next Feb.
Not being negative-only on purpose, but I wouldn't be near satisfied would I be either English or NZ'er today, that's for sure.

Jeez!....Agincourt still rankles eh?

 

[Big Ewis]

Jeez!....Agincourt still rankles eh?

of course, because that's the reason why I wrote all this founded text. My anti-English rage !!! ARRRRRR !!!!!
ehhhh...whatever.....

 

[Largejanner]

of course, because that's the reason why I wrote all this founded text. My anti-English rage !!! ARRRRRR !!!!!
ehhhh...whatever.....

All right then... the scuttling of the French fleet?

 

[Chikwa]

I am not 100% convinced that the All Blacks have any tactics, ever since the South African match it has just been an exercise in throwing the ball around until someone either scores or screws up, essentially 15 man 7s rugby.

(I really should have stayed out of this thread as I don't think a lot of the current AB game and I would sooner see Australia win the next 30 World Cups than England score a try)

For a team with no tactics to win 14 out 14 wins this year, what in your opinion does this say about the state and level of rugby of the opposition coaches?

 

[Zapphod]

All-Blacks: you guys sure are havin trouble playing in Europe, ay. Still 3 tries here.

England are powerful but boring, but are a formidable foe and I'm eager to see what France will manage in the opener next Feb.
Not being negative-only on purpose, but I wouldn't be near satisfied would I be either English or NZ'er today, that's for sure.

I am not sure the All Blacks are having trouble in Europe as much as they are playing a game that isn't being reciprocated and are showing no signs of being able to alter their game plan at any stage during the game.

The English are not a fast pace team and for some reason the French have switched to a more defensive style which I find a bit of a shame as I have always liked French rugby and I agree there is no one that should be satisfied with that game English, New Zealand or South African.

For a team with no tactics to win 14 out 14 wins this year, what in your opinion does this say about the state and level of rugby of the opposition coaches?

Well to be fair they have one tactic, score more points than the opposition. However they only have one method of doing that and that is the high speed game which came to a peak against South Africa but it is a tactic that only works if the opposition allow you to use it (primarily South Africa and Australia because it is the way our games have developed) unfortunately Northern Hemisphere teams are defensive based so it is a case of the two extremes meeting and as usual attack wins but only just and more often than not you just get an ugly game.

 

[Crapspray]

That's just the objective truth.

All in all, sorry England for my anti-Englishness but I'm just stating what's on my mind

Hmmm... I sense an element of contradiction. The objective truth is what decisions are made, whether they are right or wrong is entirely subjective.

England are powerful but boring, but are a formidable foe and I'm eager to see what France will manage in the opener next Feb. Not being negative-only on purpose, but I wouldn't be near satisfied would I be either English or NZ'er today, that's for sure.

Really? New Zealand have now won 13 from 13 and, looking at the other results, will win 14 from 14. They managed to beat a side that raised their game hugely against them both this and last year. As for mental fragility, they lost an fourteen point lead and went two points behind, they managed to pull it back to win with the crowd and England giving it their all. I doubt many other sides could manage that.

For England, we've seen that the pack is now capable of going to toe-to-toe with any side in the world. Work remains to be done on the backs, but the players are there in the EPS. Given we were missing our three best attacking backs (Tuilagi, Wade, and Yarde) I think we can be very happy that we pushed them so close and were in a position to win with 15 minutes left. If we sort the backs out and have another two years of experience in the squad we'll be in a strong position come 2015.

I don't mind the side being boring when they get 9 wins from 11. Better than, say, 1 from 9. Hypothetically, of course... the opener should be a good match though.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Ewis, stop kidding yourself - you are always telling us how objective you are in your analysis of England yet you constantly bring up how boring they are.

That conclusion can only come from a subjective analysis since enjoyment is necessarily subjective.

 

[tenpm]

Pretty frustrating game to watch. I did feel that some calls went against us (the obstruction after the penalty off the post being the most blatant), but other calls went in our favour (Mealamu persistently entering mauls from the side should really have been a yellow). If we had lost this game, it wouldn't have been because of the referee. The scoreline is an accurate reflection of the performances on the field.

As a sidenote, even though it was a call that went against us, I was very pleased to see Piutau's quick throw with his foot in the field dealt with correctly - too many referees simply ignore it or give the attacking team another chance with a traditional lineout.

The All Blacks' backline was too deep in attack, although some credit must go to the English defence in that regard. Such a pity Carter had to go off so early, for the All Blacks as well as for him. Cruden wasn't bad, but Carter was much better in attack - it's no coincidence that the All Blacks scored two tries in the 25 minutes with Carter, and only one in 55 minutes with Cruden. The outside backs did well with the ball they were provided, but they couldn't do much with the English defence right up their faces as they received the pass. The English backline didn't offer much in attack, but I felt that Mike Brown, in particular, was excellent on defence. Twelvetrees did make some metres with his carries, but he held on too often when he should have passed the ball.

The All Blacks lost a lot of momentum when Read was sin binned, which shows how crucial he has become to their game plan. The decision making from all the All Blacks loose forwards were suspect. They conceded too many penalties, and McCaw offloading unnecessarily led to the brief English lead. Breakdowns were messy from both sides. There's been several occasions where the ball ended up with one team and I was fairly sure that it wasn't secured lawfully. Joubert was unbiased but inconsistent with his rulings, blowing up some infringements and not others.

 

[Chikwa]

Pretty frustrating game to watch. I did feel that some calls went against us (the obstruction after the penalty off the post being the most blatant), but other calls went in our favour (Mealamu persistently entering mauls from the side should really have been a yellow). If we had lost this game, it wouldn't have been because of the referee. The scoreline is an accurate reflection of the performances on the field.

As a sidenote, even though it was a call that went against us, I was very pleased to see Piutau's quick throw with his foot in the field dealt with correctly - too many referees simply ignore it or give the attacking team another chance with a traditional lineout.

The All Blacks' backline was too deep in attack, although some credit must go to the English defence in that regard. Such a pity Carter had to go off so early, for the All Blacks as well as for him. Cruden wasn't bad, but Carter was much better in attack - it's no coincidence that the All Blacks scored two tries in the 25 minutes with Carter, and only one in 55 minutes with Cruden. The outside backs did well with the ball they were provided, but they couldn't do much with the English defence right up their faces as they received the pass. The English backline didn't offer much in attack, but I felt that Mike Brown, in particular, was excellent on defence. Twelvetrees did make some metres with his carries, but he held on too often when he should have passed the ball.

The All Blacks lost a lot of momentum when Read was sin binned, which shows how crucial he has become to their game plan. The decision making from all the All Blacks loose forwards were suspect. They conceded too many penalties, and McCaw offloading unnecessarily led to the brief English lead. Breakdowns were messy from both sides. There's been several occasions where the ball ended up with one team and I was fairly sure that it wasn't secured lawfully. Joubert was unbiased but inconsistent with his rulings, blowing up some infringements and not others.

I am speaking with my heart and not my head, I thought Joubert tried to give the English go forward momentum!

 

[Tony Manx]

I am speaking with my heart and not my head, I thought Joubert tried to give the English go forward momentum!

..............you still on the wine?

 

[Big Ewis]

Ewis, stop kidding yourself - you are always telling us how objective you are in your analysis of England yet you constantly bring up how boring they are.

Please, I loooooove kidding myself. Don't tell me to stop, it's just rude !...
actually I'll gladly say that about France or any other team that really is boring to the common individual watching the TV set for 80min, and if anything trust me I withhold from saying it more ! it's just how it is..I'm sure that can't be said of the England League team for e.g. by fans of the sport from what I've seen on youtube out of curiosity yesterday...

Really? New Zealand have now won 13 from 13 and, looking at the other results, will win 14 from 14. They managed to beat a side that raised their game hugely against them both this and last year. As for mental fragility, they lost an fourteen point lead and went two points behind, they managed to pull it back to win with the crowd and England giving it their all. I doubt many other sides could manage that.

I don't mind the side being boring when they get 9 wins from 11. Better than, say, 1 from 9. Hypothetically, of course... the opener should be a good match though.

Yes, really. New Zealand don't play to just win. Do you think they'd have been glad with a 1point victory ? They committed a bunch of penalties, couldn't assert their much faster pace on a relatively slower England, scored 3 tries but didn't have a ton of opportunities having to deal with containing England's attack themselves. The scrum was looking grim early on for them, and they were so pressured they did things like kick the ball directly into touch twice and almost a third time, just as an example of how clearly uncomfortable they were all match.
A bunch of ppl, incld. myself thought they'd have taken advantage of England and poured in from left, right and center. England managed to contain them fairly well.

Did this NZ side look like an supremely confident side coming to Twickenham to rectify an year old affront and conquer uncompromisingly with Hellish brutality ? mmmno. No they didn't. They looked stressed, under immense pressure, attempting to play their game but bothered the whole way til around the 72nd minute, when they just played kill-the-clock.

That's mental fragility, with bursts of quality play which you mention. You can't tell me playing in Twickenham didn't get to their heads, that England weren't looking like the English side of last year (without the flu this time for the kiwis) when they came back to take the lead I believe at 21-20 deep into the guts of the match ?
England at home have clearly been the "bête noire" for NZ, come on, take it as a compliment !

And you don't mind England being boring when they win, then fine man. What can I tell you ? Good ! If anything, it's respectable to see them win so much and with less talent than other teams who have a lot more but just don't click as well as a team. England play a consistent, simple game. They don't try anything they don't know, and stick to the game plan. And it works. I'm just saying it's certainly boring, and even more than that in parts. I just can't respect the 20 phases waiting for the opponents to commit a penalty...it's just not why I watch Rugby when it's done that consistently. That's all.

I am not sure the All Blacks are having trouble in Europe as much as they are playing a game that isn't being reciprocated and are showing no signs of being able to alter their game plan at any stage during the game.

The English are not a fast pace team and for some reason the French have switched to a more defensive style which I find a bit of a shame as I have always liked French rugby and I agree there is no one that should be satisfied with that game English, New Zealand or South African.

Glad you agree, man. NZ "can't reciprocate" in fairness to them because the defensive efforts of France were incredible. Intense, organized, and consistent. If not for those two tries !! aaaaah, those damn All-Blacks...
France still has bursts of aesthetic, "sexy" looking attack even now, but they also look BAAAAD during some bad moments. They need to play together more, they just don't have the time to prepare man, impossible to cement those combinations and play a fluid style on attack when you're not sure what that guy's last name is !...

And yes it's quite remarkable how England, being slower in comparison, still managed to impose their rhythm on that match.

 

[Sam Owen]

I couldn't help but notice that England's changes were significant, especially with the commentators pointing it out. Apart from Morgans introduction all the others didnt really have a positive impact. I'm not blaming Lancaster at all but those players that came off the bench. They needed to maintain or add a positive impact but they didn't. England very unlucky not to get the W, they played really well and IMO they're up there with the Blacks.

I'm not one to bag the reff, Joubert did miss a few things but I thought he reffed well. He's the best reff in the world IMO.

Kieran Reid is the best player in the world. At this time, there is none finer.

Ben Smith is looking really good at centre.

DC is still the man and after his much needed break I gotta feeling he'll be back in his usual outstanding form.

Like Zapphod was saying, I do agree the Blacks attack kind of went lost particularly in the last 10mins. They kind of just went side to side and I think England's defence can take credit for that often rushing up on a fairly flat Cruden. But yeah the Blacks back line did look a bit plain at the end there.

Very good game both teams.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Please, I loooooove kidding myself. Don't tell me to stop, it's just rude !...
actually I'll gladly say that about France or any other team that really is boring to the common individual watching the TV set for 80min, and if anything trust me I withhold from saying it more !

it's just how it is..I'm sure that can't be said of the England League team for e.g. by fans of the sport from what I've seen on youtube out of curiosity yesterday...

I don't care if you think they're a boring team.

Stating that you are making an objective assessment, however, is simply incorrect.

 

[Big Ewis]

All right then... the scuttling of the French fleet?

you're threading on thin ice with your humor here, man !! But I appreciate that it's just humor...