English rugby clubs ‘heading for disaster’ after mounting £300m in debts

[Kiwiwomble]

so, for the franchises being run by existing clubs, theyre not tapping into new or wider income streams....so too become more financially stable theyre going to be reliant on the RFU, so on the back on the international game?....literally trickle down economics, once again thats what we have in NZ and its going down the gurgler

 

[RedruthRFC]

so, for the franchises being run by existing clubs, theyre not tapping into new or wider income streams....so too become more financially stable theyre going to be reliant on the RFU, so on the back on the international game?....literally trickle down economics, once again thats what we have in NZ and its going down the gurgler

It would depend how it's done IMO. Taking Doncaster as an example, if they applied for and were granted a franchise in a new franchise-based league and continued playing as Doncaster Knights at Castle Park, then I'd agree with you. Hopefully, in order to be granted a franchise, teams would have to demonstrate how this would grow their business. For example changing their name to the Yorkshire Puddings, playing at different grounds around the county and working to improve links with lower-tier teams in the county.

Cornish Pirates are a decent case study in doing this within the English game. Until some point in the early/mid 2000s, they were Penzance/Newlyn RFC and played their matches at the Mennaye Field in Penzance. They then rebranded as Cornish Pirates and moved their home games to Truro (capital of Cornwall, centralish population wise) and then the Camborne (a rugby town within Cornwall's rugby heartland). Following a fallout with their landlords in Camborne, they moved back to Penzance (geographically isolated at the extreme of the peninsula) and their attendance has declined to (less than?) half of the averages they were hitting. I'm sure there's more factors than pure geography at play, but it is at least an indication of what can be achieved by embracing a franchise approach.

 

[higgik]

It would depend how it's done IMO. Taking Doncaster as an example, if they applied for and were granted a franchise in a new franchise-based league and continued playing as Doncaster Knights at Castle Park, then I'd agree with you. Hopefully, in order to be granted a franchise, teams would have to demonstrate how this would grow their business. For example changing their name to the Yorkshire Puddings, playing at different grounds around the county and working to improve links with lower-tier teams in the county.

Cornish Pirates are a decent case study in doing this within the English game. Until some point in the early/mid 2000s, they were Penzance/Newlyn RFC and played their matches at the Mennaye Field in Penzance. They then rebranded as Cornish Pirates and moved their home games to Truro (capital of Cornwall, centralish population wise) and then the Camborne (a rugby town within Cornwall's rugby heartland). Following a fallout with their landlords in Camborne, they moved back to Penzance (geographically isolated at the extreme of the peninsula) and their attendance has declined to (less than?) half of the averages they were hitting. I'm sure there's more factors than pure geography at play, but it is at least an indication of what can be achieved by embracing a franchise approach.

Doncaster could at least be the South Yorkshire Knights, leaving a resurgent Leeds to take West Yorkshire area.
What about Darlington MP?
Just take a look at the major urban areas in England and see how much is left untapped.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

It would depend how it's done IMO. Taking Doncaster as an example, if they applied for and were granted a franchise in a new franchise-based league and continued playing as Doncaster Knights at Castle Park, then I'd agree with you. Hopefully, in order to be granted a franchise, teams would have to demonstrate how this would grow their business. For example changing their name to the Yorkshire Puddings, playing at different grounds around the county and working to improve links with lower-tier teams in the county.

Cornish Pirates are a decent case study in doing this within the English game. Until some point in the early/mid 2000s, they were Penzance/Newlyn RFC and played their matches at the Mennaye Field in Penzance. They then rebranded as Cornish Pirates and moved their home games to Truro (capital of Cornwall, centralish population wise) and then the Camborne (a rugby town within Cornwall's rugby heartland). Following a fallout with their landlords in Camborne, they moved back to Penzance (geographically isolated at the extreme of the peninsula) and their attendance has declined to (less than?) half of the averages they were hitting. I'm sure there's more factors than pure geography at play, but it is at least an indication of what can be achieved by embracing a franchise approach.

....but that goes back too my first point and what weve seen in NZ...you start loosing your original fanbase...."thats not the team ive supported since 197...." etc

hell a more personal example, wimbledon moves to MK....the vast majority of fan dont follow the franchise team...they start a new one...that wears blue and yellow, has a two headed eagle on its crest....and eventually plays at a ground on plough lane in Wimbledon

you have to keep the core

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Pat Lam saying Bristol won't spend up to the cap.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

New Zealand's way made no sense to me. Completely ignored established brands and the lack of geographical names makes it really confusing for international fans. Also the old provincial logos are really cool. Very similar to the old timey American teams. Now all the teams look like they were created by focus groups.

I think eventually they'll set up a system that makes a professional rugby more stable. Stable enough for people to come in and buy the licensing to clubs and get a "franchise" in the pro system. I imagine Leeds will be on of the first teams to sell.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Pat Lam saying Bristol won't spend up to the cap.

Weren't they one of the clubs complaining about the cap before?
Times must be tough

 

[stus768]

Weren't they one of the clubs complaining about the cap before?
Times must be tough

At the end of the article in the times he's quoted as saying the cap should be raised to £10m! No idea why he would think that's a good idea.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think both Exeter and Bears pushed for the cap increase (can't remember who else) and both don't spend up to it.
I'm guessing the 3 teams going hurting revenue prob is the reason

 

[Saintjay]

You could call them the Yorkshire Tea - Baggers and still nobody in Lancashire would follow them.

 

[stus768]

I think both Exeter and Bears pushed for the cap increase (can't remember who else) and both don't spend up to it.
I'm guessing the 3 teams going hurting revenue prob is the reason

Bath and sarries as well

 

[Which Tyler]

Mind, it's such a big increase, it'd be easily possible to spend significantly more than the current cap and still spend "not up to the cap"
There's also something to be said for keeping enough in reserve to cover next year's extensions. You'd only really expect anyone to spend the full new cap if their entire squad was up for new contracts this summer (or they were getting in significant temporary options on 1 year contracts).

TBH, I was also always a fan of Hooper's tactic of keeping £500k or so in reserve for mid-season signings - covering injuries and unexpectedly available stars.
And I say that as someone who was never a fan of Hooper.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Here's who I can see in the top 14 courtesy of all.rugby:

Stade Francais: Zack Henry, Joe Marchant.

Toulouse: Jack Willis

Racing 92: Junior Kpoku, Henry Arundell

La Rochelle: Jack Nowell

Bordeaux Begles: None

Toulon: Kieran Brookes, Jack Singleton, Dave Ribbans

Pau: Dan Robson, Joe Simmonds

Castres: None (well bar the dead to me Henry Thomas).

Perpignan: Ali Crossdale

Bayonne: None

Clermont: None

Lyon: Joel Kpoku

Montpellier: Harry Williams, Sam Simmonds

Oyonnax: None

In D2:

Harry Glynn, Myles Edwards, Harrison Obatoyinbo, Brett Heron, Pierce Phillips, Beau Farrance, Richard Barrington, Joe Maksymiw, Zak Farrance, Harry Sloan, Henry Purdy, Cam Dodson, Darrell Dyer,
George Worth, William Greatbanks, Alfie Petch, Charlie Matthews, Billy Searle, Jonathan Joseph, Zach Kibirige, Lewis Bean, Karl Wilkins, Toby Salmon & Will Witty.

I doubt that's 100% but gives a flavour. Obviously some big names heading to France next year in Farrell, Manu, Lawes, Sinckler & Ludlam.

The England national team aren't losing out too too badly, nonetheless we'd still be better for having Willis, Arundell and Marchant in the conversation, Farrell would be picked and the likes of Ludlam and Ribbans would at least be keeping other, probably better, players honest. No problem with those past their peak / never good enough / not good enough yet going to France to boost their bank accounts or further their rugby education.

Missed Will Collier at Castres. Interesting interview in the Grauniad.

You can see why fringe players could be tempted. With the way things are maybe even an outside chance that Collier himself might have got back in the conversation but he doesn't seem to have too many regrets.

‘I’m loving it’: why so many English players feel the pull of French rugby

The former Quins prop Will Collier tells Robert Kitosn he is revelling in Castres fans’ passion and other benefits of life in southern France

www.theguardian.com

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Missed Will Collier at Castres. Interesting interview in the Grauniad.

You can see why fringe players could be tempted. With the way things are maybe even an outside chance that Collier himself might have got back in the conversation but he doesn't seem to have too many regrets.

‘I’m loving it’: why so many English players feel the pull of French rugby

The former Quins prop Will Collier tells Robert Kitosn he is revelling in Castres fans’ passion and other benefits of life in southern France

www.theguardian.com

It was a good interview. Makes me want to visit southern France even more. See a game at each of the top 3 levels just take in the emotions of the fans.