English rugby clubs ‘heading for disaster’ after mounting £300m in debts

[Reiser99]

Tbh I think a 10 team premiership and championship wouldn't be the worst thing for English clubs to explore. You won't have to pay players the same wages as the French if you can promise 8 less games per season.

The danger of this is if it's not planned properly it leads to a negative spiral. Cut costs to make the game affordable = less money coming in, which then means further cost cutting, which then means even less money coming in. I'm all for a step back if there is a clear plan with a step forward, but I worry that the RFU doesn't have the ability to think that long term.

It's the reason why the rich clubs would vote for something that could well harm them in the long run. They are only looking at the next few years, not 15-20 years.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I can't lie. Between all the covid stuff, the mascot stuff, and now this, Exeter really are making it hard to continue supporting them.

 

[RedruthRFC]

I can't lie. Between all the covid stuff, the mascot stuff, and now this, Exeter really are making it hard to continue supporting them.

I know that in the early days of professionalism, they were very open with supporters about the club's affairs. Have they explained their position on this?

Why would a business that's in such a poor financial situation that it would sell (shares in?) an asset that was touted as securing its financial future, vote in favour of needing to spend more money to remain competitive?

It's amazing how quickly the club have managed to destroy their "everyone's favourite second team" status, which can't have helped their business. I'm certainly much less inclined to make a 100 mile up the A30 for a fix of Premiership rugby than I was back when Exeter were everyone's favourite plucky overachievers. TBH, I don't see anything changing until Tony Rowe is no longer involved with the club and the windows have been kept open for a while to get rid of the smell of gammon.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Considering 4 clubs just voted for a salary cap increase, against the wishes of everyone else, that seems...unlikely?

Unless they're kicking them out and bringing in Jersey, Bedford, Doncaster and Coventry (I'm ignoring Ealing cause they will definitely be looking to spend over the odds, from what their owners said in the past)

 

[stus768]

Considering 4 clubs just voted for a salary cap increase, against the wishes of everyone else, that seems...unlikely?

Unless they're kicking them out and bringing in Jersey, Bedford, Doncaster and Coventry (I'm ignoring Ealing cause they will definitely be looking to spend over the odds, from what their owners said in the past)

I assume they can change their minds? Especially as that was voted on before Wasps and Worc went bust.

 

[Reiser99]

Report says rugby finances 'clearly unsustainable'

Premiership rugby club finances are "clearly unsustainable", a damning parliamentary report has concluded.

www.bbc.com

The report doesn't hold back.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Government clash with Premiership rugby clubs over £150m Covid loans

The government are at loggerheads with Premiership rugby clubs over their attempts to secure deferrals on the repayment of over £150million of Covid-19 loans.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Uh-oh

Other than the general sense that everything is ****** and that pro rugby in this country might cease to exist soon, couple of interesting bits in there:

TNT deal extended by two years but on reduced terms,
PRL trying to get the salary cap reduced again the season after next

 

[stus768]

Government clash with Premiership rugby clubs over £150m Covid loans

The government are at loggerheads with Premiership rugby clubs over their attempts to secure deferrals on the repayment of over £150million of Covid-19 loans.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Uh-oh

Other than the general sense that everything is ****** and that pro rugby in this country might cease to exist soon, couple of interesting bits in there:

TNT deal extended by two years but on reduced terms,
PRL trying to get the salary cap reduced again the season after next

So cap will go up them back down again? Insanity.

 

[Which Tyler]

So cap will go up them back down again? Insanity.

Legal necessity, unfortunately.
Forcing clubs to break legally binding contracts would probably be an even greater insanity.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's gonna be interesting to see what happens with it - dropping it back down after one season is going to need a whole lot of caveats for existing contracts considering a lot of sides will instantly be 1.4m over the limit

Really it should've never gone back up - I'm guessing it's because (from what I remember about them from reports around COVID time) PRL votes have to be unanimous - so they all unanimously voted to drop the cap down for however many seasons, and then it'll go back up, and now that it's time to go back up only 7/10 (or whatever) don't want that so can't stop it

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

It's gonna be rough. So many French teams bidding on English players will drive up the price of non-internationals. English teams can only have so many non-eu players. Don't see how premiership will compete in Europe.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

They will make it to the quarters but prob the limit atm.

Are the french spending that much money on English players? I still feel it's not as bad as people say on the whole

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I still feel it's not as bad as people say on the whole

Yeah, same
Like realistically the biggest loss so far is Marchant, and he's rumoured to be moving back next season anyway

People are losing their minds over Ludlam and Sinckler when neither made the Six Nations squad anyway (Ludlam probably would've if he'd had time to prove fitness beforehand but is probably a squad player moving forwards and can be replaced be Pearson)

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

They will make it to the quarters but prob the limit atm.

Are the french spending that much money on English players? I still feel it's not as bad as people say on the whole

I think English clubs have been feeing the need to match offers.
It won't be the big names that hurt it will be the second and third tier players who can get better contracts in France but are still cheaper than a similar French player.

That whole "best English players abroad" by rugby pass or whoever was essentially a list of good premiership players that aren't going to make people lose their minds when they leave.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

But that's kinda the circle of life isn't it
2nd/3rd tier leaves and upcoming player replaces


Maybe before when it was 13 team league but with 10 it's a not as bad
Marchant went and Joseph replaces

 

[Crash Hamster]

Yeah, same
Like realistically the biggest loss so far is Marchant, and he's rumoured to be moving back next season anyway

People are losing their minds over Ludlam and Sinckler when neither made the Six Nations squad anyway (Ludlam probably would've if he'd had time to prove fitness beforehand but is probably a squad player moving forwards and can be replaced be Pearson)

There are a lot of England-qualified players and we have no shortage in any position. In some positions, we have top notch international performers, in others it's 'good club/borderline international' players at best, but wherever the sharp end of the pyramid falls, there is no position where a player is irreplaceable with someone of similar ability.

We might lack world beating props of both persuasions and an IC, but there are players with lots of Premiership experience who could do a job; VRR and Nick Schonert, off the top of my head.

Bringing such players in may weaken the side (or they may step up and we may wonder why they weren't included sooner) but it's not as if we're Wales.

 

[Which Tyler]

Our misses are JWillis, Marchant and Arundel.
We've an embarrassment of riches in the backrow and wing, a few decent options at OC, where March looks like he's returning anyway.

All teams have journeymen imports, it would be churlish to complain about journeymen exports.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Our misses are JWillis, Marchant and Arundel.
We've an embarrassment of riches in the backrow and wing, a few decent options at OC, where March looks like he's returning anyway.

All teams have journeymen imports, it would be churlish to complain about journeymen exports.

Not sure that Arundell's trajectory was any different from IFW's... and Murley/Radwan would surely also be able to fill the hole. We seem to have picked Daly as a winger because we want to.

WIllis J. is undeniably an excellent player, but we could probably put out six or seven good-quality international back rows (assuming everyone is fit and available.)

Marchant isn't guaranteed to be selected, but would certainly be in the conversation.

 

[Which Tyler]

Not sure that Arundell's trajectory was any different from IFW's... and Murley/Radwan would surely also be able to fill the hole. We seem to have picked Daly as a winger because we want to.

WIllis J. is undeniably an excellent player, but we could probably put out six or seven good-quality international back rows (assuming everyone is fit and available.)

Marchant isn't guaranteed to be selected, but would certainly be in the conversation.

Oh, I didn't mean that any of the 3 I mentioned would be automatic picks for England; just that all 3 would be part of the conversation for wider squads. So in with a shot (not guaranteed) of being in our top 3-4ish for their positions.

JWillis would probably be behind Curry & Underhill, but part of the conversation behind them, along with the likes of Pearson, Pepper, Earl etc.
Marchant would be giving Slade and Lawrence a challenge for the OC berth, whilst Joseph, Dingwall and a few others* would be pressuring from behind (*including some of our up and coming "IC" options like Dingwall, Ojomoh, Kelly and Hartley, all of whom are at least as bilateral as Lawrence is).
Arundell would be challenging IFW and Freeman for starts, all of whom have looked to the manor born (and all of whom still have some work-ons), and I think a lot of us would put the likes of Murley, Radwan, Thorley etc in that same bracket, and some would include Cokanasiga in that rank as well). NB: I'm assuming that May, Watson and Daly are done at international level.

Behind them, and overseas, our best players are probably the Simmonds brothers, neither of whom are better than "might be useful if we were trying to put out a 5th XV without looking to youth".
Realistically, Sam would need Earl, Dombrandt, Mercer and TWillis all to be unavailable, for his departure to matter; and we ought to be looking for younger by the time we're that far down.
Joe would need Ford and both Smiths to be out before joining any conversations. Once there, then Farrell would be a miss, but he'd retired from international rugby before leaving the country, so shouldn't be part of this conversation.

Beyond that, we're looking at who? Jack Nowell? Ali Crossdale?