English dissent towards the ERC now official

[Feicarsinn]

Lulz, I like this guy.

 

[welshglory]

I like how you're suggesting loosing to the Scarlets is a terrible thing.. They are a good side just with a pretty crap pack.. if that was sorted out then they can potentially stand up there with the best (oh and get a 10 who can kick consistently)

I'm pretty sure you guys have been saying this since the Scarlets were created :lol:

 

[Maverick1987]

Must say my biggest issue with the whole Heineken cup situation is more about salary caps than anything . How a team can be put out like toulon are about to put out now is beyond me but hey ho

 

[Tony Manx]

Must say my biggest issue with the whole Heineken cup situation is more about salary caps than anything . How a team can be put out like toulon are about to put out now is beyond me but hey ho

Not sure this is on the right thread but would point out that Toulon are only fourth biggest overall budget for this season over 12 million euro behind Toulouse......and that this for the total outgoings and not just salaries as Sky instead on inferring it is! I do not know what the breakdown between salaries and other expenses is but thems is the rules and it is probably easier for the French clubs to stay within them as opposed to certain English clubs that "seem" not to (seperate thread on this)!!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

ERC "evaluating" the proposed changes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20153329

Premiership Rugby and their French counterparts want all teams to qualify for European rugby union's blue riband club tournament "on merit", removing guaranteed places for the Pro12 clubs.

The English and French clubs also want the money from the TV deal to be split evenly between the English Premiership, French Top 14 and Pro12 - at the moment the Pro12 receives 52% of the income.

 

[Feicarsinn]

ERC "evaluating" the proposed changes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20153329

Well those two things go hand in hand, don't they? The Rabo supplied 11 teams last year and the majority of the quarter finalists. One would have expected them to take the Lion's share of the revenue. If you reduce the number of Celtic League teams in the competition you obviously reduce the amount of income the league gets.


Personally I wouldn't mind cutting down on the number of teams in the competition. If we had a 20 team tournament with 6 teams from each, last year's winner and the Amlin winner we'd be without Connacht, Treviso, Edinburgh, and Zebre. No great loss tbh, as their results in the opening rounds show. No problem trimming the fat. Less games in Scotland and Italy and more games in the south of France sounds good to me in terms of the quality of the competition.

 

[Teh Mite]

The key issue is the Celts see it as "Ireland supply 3, Wales supply 3, Scotland supply 2, Italy supply 2", they don't assosciate the HEC with the Celtic league (except when those with chips on their shoulders or babbling cock forum membets fancy a bit of English baiting).

The English and French see it as "The Celts automaticallly qualify and don't earn the right to compete". Not acknowleging the piddly teeny pools of quality teams in the Celtic nations.

Two vastly differing perspectives. But that is why the non-Celts want to level the playing field and have the qualification. In reality, a HEC championship is a 2 year journey.

 

[Feicarsinn]

The key issue is the Celts see it as "Ireland supply 3, Wales supply 3, Scotland supply 2, Italy supply 2", they don't assosciate the HEC with the Celtic league (except when those with chips on their shoulders or babbling cock forum membets fancy a bit of English baiting).

The English and French see it as "The Celts automaticallly qualify and don't earn the right to compete". Not acknowleging the piddly teeny pools of quality teams in the Celtic nations.

Two vastly differing perspectives. But that is why the non-Celts want to level the playing field and have the qualification. In reality, a HEC championship is a 2 year journey.

Personally I think there are about 5 proper Heineken Cup quality sides in the Rabo. Our three, Ospreys and maybe Llanelli. I reckon England has about 4 or 5 (Quins, Sarries, Leicester, Northampton) and France has 5 (Clermont, Toulouse, Montpellier, Racing, Toulon.) There isn't the massive difference in terms of number of quality sides that you make out. It's just that the poorer Rabo sides are put essentially on exhibition in the Heineken Cup whereas the poorer French and England sides play in the Amlin. Would Welsh or Mont-de-Marsan do better that Zebre? Debatable. The leagues are roughly comparable in terms of quality, and thusly should get roughly the same number of qualifying spots.

 

[Teh Mite]

The Celtic may have 5 quality sides, but Ireland only has 3. Wales has 2 (some would say none). Either they're separate entities and should be treated as such, or they're all Celtic league sides and should live and die by the sword.


As it stands, they have their cake and also eat it.

 

[Feicarsinn]

The Celtic may have 5 quality sides, but Ireland only has 3. Wales has 2 (some would say none). Either they're separate entities and should be treated as such, or they're all Celtic league sides and should live and die by the sword.


As it stands, they have their cake and also eat it.

Can't argue with that. I'm open to correction on this, but as far as I know the Celtic teams are represented in negotiations by their unions, as opposed to the league. Now in my mind this isn't going to work. The league cannot be viewed in the same light as its French and English counterparts if the unions are going to be looking out for themselves as opposed to what is best as for the league. While I can understand the unions looking out for their own clubs (the Scots and Italians in particular) they've got to realise that this is a pretty short sighted way of doing things. While changing the qualifications system from one where the Unions are guaranteed spaces to one where they must earn them throughout the course of the season may be detrimental to the likes of Treviso and Glasgow in the first few seasons, it will have the effect of making the league more competitive and therefore there will be more high intensity competitive games throughout the season. Essentially you can trade 6 tough Heineken Cup games for an extra 10 or 12 tough league games. That can't but benefit the clubs and consequently the national teams in the long run.

But of course it's not about raising the standard of play, it's about the unions looking out for their pockets.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

The key issue is the Celts see it as "Ireland supply 3, Wales supply 3, Scotland supply 2, Italy supply 2", they don't assosciate the HEC with the Celtic league (except when those with chips on their shoulders or babbling cock forum membets fancy a bit of English baiting).

The English and French see it as "The Celts automaticallly qualify and don't earn the right to compete". Not acknowleging the piddly teeny pools of quality teams in the Celtic nations.

Two vastly differing perspectives. But that is why the non-Celts want to level the playing field and have the qualification. In reality, a HEC championship is a 2 year journey.

You might find that most 'Celts' would like tougher qualification. It's only the top officials who don't for fear of economic hits for clubs who rely heavily on funding / income from the HEC Cup.

 

[psychic duck]

I actually think dropping down to the Amlin Challenge Cup could help the Italian teams rather than hinder them.

Treviso as it stands are okay, but only really cause an upset or two during the pool stages and aren't expected to ever get into the quarters. In the Amlin Challenge Cup though, Treviso would be genuine contenders to reach the latter stages. Which may be of more interest to their fans.

Zebre are unlikely to win a game in the Heineken Cup, it may be better for them to have some games with lesser opposition in the Amlin which they can test players out in without getting thrashed, and a couple of wins could boost their confidence rather than them losing every match. Also their fans get fed up of watching them lose heavily each week, they got just 1,8000 to turn up for their opening Heineken Cup game against Connacht.

Also, in the RaboPro12, what would otherwise be a humdrum dead rubber towards the end of the season between say Glasgow and Cardiff Blues, would be a big Heineken Cup qualification decider, which could attract more fans.

There are quite a few benefits to the Pro12 of qualifying being added.

At least one Scottish side normally finishes in the top 6 of the RaboPro12 anyway, so there should be 5 nations represented in the tournament in normal circumstances anyway.

The Celtic sides are very against shortening the tournament to 20 teams which is what the French and English want, and also they are against an added third tier tournament for Tier 2 European nations. I'm not sure why to be honest as that doesn't even effect them so much.

 

[j'nuh]

Personally I think there are about 5 proper Heineken Cup quality sides in the Rabo. Our three, Ospreys and maybe Llanelli. I reckon England has about 4 or 5 (Quins, Sarries, Leicester, Northampton) and France has 5 (Clermont, Toulouse, Montpellier, Racing, Toulon.) There isn't the massive difference in terms of number of quality sides that you make out. It's just that the poorer Rabo sides are put essentially on exhibition in the Heineken Cup whereas the poorer French and England sides play in the Amlin. Would Welsh or Mont-de-Marsan do better that Zebre? Debatable. The leagues are roughly comparable in terms of quality, and thusly should get roughly the same number of qualifying spots.

Bath, Wasps, L. Irish, Glos, Perpignan, Stade Francais, Bayonne etc. would. They would provide some competitive matches at the very least.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Bath, Wasps, L. Irish, Glos, Perpignan, Stade Francais, Bayonne etc. would. They would provide some competitive matches at the very least.

More competitive than Cardiff, Glasgow & Treviso? Probably not.

 

[welshglory]

Personally I think there are about 5 proper Heineken Cup quality sides in the Rabo. Our three, Ospreys and maybe Llanelli. I reckon England has about 4 or 5 (Quins, Sarries, Leicester, Northampton) and France has 5 (Clermont, Toulouse, Montpellier, Racing, Toulon.) There isn't the massive difference in terms of number of quality sides that you make out. It's just that the poorer Rabo sides are put essentially on exhibition in the Heineken Cup whereas the poorer French and England sides play in the Amlin. Would Welsh or Mont-de-Marsan do better that Zebre? Debatable. The leagues are roughly comparable in terms of quality, and thusly should get roughly the same number of qualifying spots.

NO

 

[Teh Mite]

Can't argue with that. I'm open to correction on this, but as far as I know the Celtic teams are represented in negotiations by their unions, as opposed to the league. Now in my mind this isn't going to work. The league cannot be viewed in the same light as its French and English counterparts if the unions are going to be looking out for themselves as opposed to what is best as for the league. While I can understand the unions looking out for their own clubs (the Scots and Italians in particular) they've got to realise that this is a pretty short sighted way of doing things. While changing the qualifications system from one where the Unions are guaranteed spaces to one where they must earn them throughout the course of the season may be detrimental to the likes of Treviso and Glasgow in the first few seasons, it will have the effect of making the league more competitive and therefore there will be more high intensity competitive games throughout the season. Essentially you can trade 6 tough Heineken Cup games for an extra 10 or 12 tough league games. That can't but benefit the clubs and consequently the national teams in the long run.

But of course it's not about raising the standard of play, it's about the unions looking out for their pockets.

Bingo. The RFU are also guilty of this by not inviting the PRL to the last round of negotiations.

 

[j_remos]

Can't argue with that. I'm open to correction on this, but as far as I know the Celtic teams are represented in negotiations by their unions, as opposed to the league. Now in my mind this isn't going to work. The league cannot be viewed in the same light as its French and English counterparts if the unions are going to be looking out for themselves as opposed to what is best as for the league. While I can understand the unions looking out for their own clubs (the Scots and Italians in particular) they've got to realise that this is a pretty short sighted way of doing things. While changing the qualifications system from one where the Unions are guaranteed spaces to one where they must earn them throughout the course of the season may be detrimental to the likes of Treviso and Glasgow in the first few seasons, it will have the effect of making the league more competitive and therefore there will be more high intensity competitive games throughout the season. Essentially you can trade 6 tough Heineken Cup games for an extra 10 or 12 tough league games. That can't but benefit the clubs and consequently the national teams in the long run.

But of course it's not about raising the standard of play, it's about the unions looking out for their pockets.

Exactly what my view is on this. Problem is getting Italy and Scotland to agree. I suppose it depends wether they still get a decent chunk of cash.

 

[Tony Manx]

[h=2]Rugby - The negotiations for the reform of the European Cups will resume (NRL)[/h]

The negotiations for the reform of the European Cups, stalled for several months, will resume "in the coming weeks," said the president of the National Rugby League, Paul Goze. "We're looking for a date for a new meeting. Negotiations will resume in the coming weeks," assured Paul Goze.The talks were stalled since December 12 due to a contract that the English league (Premiership) signed with BT (British Telecom) for the dissemination of European matches of English clubs from 2014 to 2015. Organizers ERC Cups in Europe, considered "illegal" because according to its regulations, it is the sole authority to negotiate broadcast rights body. The ERC has already extended his contract with Sky until 2018.

http://www.bo-pb.com/index.php/depeches-afp-rugby/sportdirect-direct-breves-142246-fr.xml

 

[smartcooky]

Now that we have an All French ERC final, I wonder of the Premiership clubs are now going to say that its all too easy for the French Clubs to qualify?

The Premiership is a far better competition than the Magners, just deal with it. You guys are basically playing a protracted version of the LV Cup.

The definition of "better" all depends on what you like doesn't it.

We get a bit of both here on SkyTV, and I don't support any particular team (although I do "follow" Quins for family reasons) but I find Pro 12 matches generally more entertaining than Premiership matches.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Now that we have an All French ERC final, I wonder of the Premiership clubs are now going to say that its all too easy for the French Clubs to qualify?

Its not the first time so i doubt it.....