England’s tour to Australia thread

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

What are the inside centre options in the current squad, really?

We have two actual centres in Porter and Dingwall compared to Farrell who did actually spend the whole game at 10.

Whatever it was England wanted to create with the 10/12 Gameplan just didn't work.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I really don't think it matters who we play where, we're gonna play the same shite gameplan regardless

 

[BPM]

We have two actual centres in Porter and Dingwall compared to Farrell who did actually spend the whole game at 10.

Whatever it was England wanted to create with the 10/12 Gameplan just didn't work.

OK but we're judging it on one game. Let's say we drop Smith (it'll never be Farrell), move Farrell to 10 and bring Dingwall in at 12. If it doesn't work immediately, do we rip that up too?

I think Porter is a decent player and I'm not against him being included in the squad, but he's a 13. He did OK as a stand-in 12 in a couple of games for Tigers but I'm really not convinced that qualifies him to be starting test matches.

 

[Rinkadink]

Itoje hardly set the world on fire, how about shifting Lawes to lock to partner Hill (or could replace Hill and have Lawes + Itoje). Jefferies in to 6, Willis and Billy V? Chessum to come off bench wherever required.

I'd also keep wings but need actual centres to be playing instead of Farrell who has to start or go bench (latter my preference). I'd keep back 3 from last week but bring on the subs sooner. Hell, maybe even a 4/4 split if Jones intends on playing the forwards as close to 80 as possible.

 

[Geordie]

For everyone else's sake please don't start me on that one…..I've mentioned it more than once on here!

If Tizard turns out to be as good as Kruis you'll hear no complaints from me. I guess what I haven't seen from him yet is the ability to really dominate the line out as peak Kruis could. That may come. FWIW Tizard's listed at 1.96 and Kruis at 1.98.

Yes, I agree he needs to improve his lineout..but they'll work on that at Saracens.

 

[Geordie]

I do think Freeman should come in on the wing.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Itoje hardly set the world on fire, how about shifting Lawes to lock to partner Hill (or could replace Hill and have Lawes + Itoje). Jefferies in to 6, Willis and Billy V? Chessum to come off bench wherever required.

I'd also keep wings but need actual centres to be playing instead of Farrell who has to start or go bench (latter my preference). I'd keep back 3 from last week but bring on the subs sooner. Hell, maybe even a 4/4 split if Jones intends on playing the forwards as close to 80 as possible.

Is this a joke?

Yes, let's drop the most consistently fantastic player that England has had for the past half decade.

 

[Grizwald]

Itoje hardly set the world on fire, how about shifting Lawes to lock to partner Hill (or could replace Hill and have Lawes + Itoje). Jefferies in to 6, Willis and Billy V? Chessum to come off bench wherever required.

I'd also keep wings but need actual centres to be playing instead of Farrell who has to start or go bench (latter my preference). I'd keep back 3 from last week but bring on the subs sooner. Hell, maybe even a 4/4 split if Jones intends on playing the forwards as close to 80 as possible.

As per my previous post I don't think any of the forwards really turned up including Lawes who had a very quiet game.

Current opinion in the press of Lawes is he's too light now to play at Lock as a result of playing mostly at 6. I must admit I don't massively buy that as he did a very good job when he had to switch to lock against Ireland in the 6N when Ewels was sent off.

 

[Eleutherarch]

I hate Itoje with a passion. If that doesn't tell you not to drop him, I don't know what will.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Is this a joke?

Yes, let's drop the most consistently fantastic player that England has had for the past half decade.

Doesn't play for Bristol though, does he?

 

[Rinkadink]

I hate Itoje with a passion. If that doesn't tell you not to drop him, I don't know what will.

Going by posts and social media lately I'd say Hill was significantly more undroppable.

Itoje with a whole massive 2 meters gained from 3 carries? He missed 4 tackles (making 5) vs France. Let's be honest, if that were Ewels or similar he'd be getting rinsed. Itoje was a menace but England in need of shaking things up badly and getting experience for other players. Itoje is just not at his best right now and that's okay, there are others who can do just as well if not better at the moment. The reluctance to change, even temporary, is one of the classic downfalls of international English rugby. This isn't the world cup, embarrassing run of form including back to back defeats vs teams of 14 men...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Going by posts and social media lately I'd say Hill was significantly more undroppable.

Itoje with a whole massive 2 meters gained from 3 carries? He missed 4 tackles (making 5) vs France. Let's be honest, if that were Ewels or similar he'd be getting rinsed. Itoje was a menace but England in need of shaking things up badly and getting experience for other players. Itoje is just not at his best right now and that's okay, there are others who can do just as well if not better at the moment. The reluctance to change, even temporary, is one of the classic downfalls of international English rugby. This isn't the world cup, embarrassing run of form including back to back defeats vs teams of 14 men...

Not sure about the first sentence….

But I agree on Itoje. He's not been at his consistent best for Eng for a little while. It doesn't mean he's a bad player, but like everyone else he'll have dips whether through tiredness, loss of form, injuries or a little complacency. And when that happens a player needs to either recharge or refocus. He's at the stage of his career - 27 with 50+ caps - where he should be at the absolute peak of his powers and that's not what we're seeing at the moment.

I'm not advocating he should be dropped for the next match. But he - or any player - shouldn't blindly be given a free pass on the basis of what he's done at times in the past either. Jones has dished out too many of those for little return.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

OK but we're judging it on one game. Let's say we drop Smith (it'll never be Farrell), move Farrell to 10 and bring Dingwall in at 12. If it doesn't work immediately, do we rip that up too?

I think Porter is a decent player and I'm not against him being included in the squad, but he's a 13. He did OK as a stand-in 12 in a couple of games for Tigers but I'm really not convinced that qualifies him to be starting test matches.

Yes we are judging on one game but farrell played 10 and was calling the shots in nearly every play. If that's the plan then Dingwall or Porter would be much better suited to that 12 roll than Smith.

On the flip side Smith didn't get to play at 10 really at all and when he did he's got the worst 12 in international rugby right now (slight but not a massive exaggeration) to work with who always thinks he knows best. The two didn't work and won't work with that game plan.

We are asking both plays to play an unnatural gameplan for both of them which is stupid really. We should work to the strengths of our players.

 

[Eleutherarch]

Going by posts and social media lately I'd say Hill was significantly more undroppable.

The reluctance to change, even temporary, is one of the classic downfalls of international English rugby. This isn't the world cup, embarrassing run of form including back to back defeats vs teams of 14 men...

My post was tongue in cheek but points taken. England isn't alone in this. ABs, SA and Wales all spring to mind.

Also, it must be wearisome for a player like Itoje to deal with a procession of team mates and an overarching grand plan for the team that seems to be rehashed and revised for every time he walks down the tunnel. Can't blame him for developing a bit of a blasé attitude.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Not sure about the first sentence….

But I agree on Itoje. He's not been at his consistent best for Eng for a little while. It doesn't mean he's a bad player, but like everyone else he'll have dips whether through tiredness, loss of form, injuries or a little complacency. And when that happens a player needs to either recharge or refocus. He's at the stage of his career - 27 with 50+ caps - where he should be at the absolute peak of his powers and that's not what we're seeing at the moment.

I'm not advocating he should be dropped for the next match. But he - or any player - shouldn't blindly be given a free pass on the basis of what he's done at times in the past either. Jones has dished out too many of those for little return.

I wouldn't mind having a game with Itoje being dropped to the bench with a younger lock starting and Itoje coming on around 50ish minutes with the instruction to go out and be the biggest pain in the arse possible for 30 minutes. Give him a little more fire and a little kick up the arse.

 

[Jimbo]

I really don't think it matters who we play where, we're gonna play the same shite gameplan regardless

Sorry you lost me at gameplan, what are you seeing that I am missing?

 

[Hmmmmmm]

That'll learn I for relying on mobile browsers innum.

In which case I'm baffled as to why there is no citing at least.

Sorry about that
Ridiculous that there was no citing however I'm sure most Wallabies supporters would be happy to see Hill back out there. Didn't provide much apart from arseholery

 

[Derpus]

Is this a joke?

Yes, let's drop the most consistently fantastic player that England has had for the past half decade.

Once a player becomes undroppable he loses one of the key incentives which drives players to peak performance, i.e. competition.

Itoje didn't offer much or anything except for a weird bout of screaming at Australia's first lineout (surely one of the more absurd things I've ever seen in a rugby match).

Early days though - he is generally fantastic.

 

[Jaguares]

I really don't think it matters who we play where, we're gonna play the same shite gameplan regardless

Cause if u run with the ball, Wallabies are gonna score 10 tries

 

[Reiser99]

On Itoje, I kind of agree with those saying he could well be tired or lacking in motivation. The screaming was weird and I wouldn't be surprised if EJ told him to do something like it. Can you imagine how it feels to be a world class lock during the tactics meeting and the head coach tells you that your role is to scream at the opposition?

Someone else suggested that EJ may have lost the dressing room. That wouldn't surprise me as unlike the B&I Lions tour to NZ when apparently Sexton and Farrell basically took over and ignored Gatland, England players know that if they want to play in the world cup they have to stay on EJ's good side. With the B&I Lions tour once the tour was over Gatland's influence on the players was over. Yes he could have dropped Sexton and Farrell in theory, but it was never going to happen. However, Jones has shown repeatedly he will bin players who oppose him unless his hand is forced. If you were in the dressing room and you know you can't actively disagree with the coach, then I imagine we would see what we're seeing now. Players lacking in motivation and energy.