England's Argetine Adventure

[Peat]

Launchbury is at least as good at blindside as at lock in the Pests games I've seen - I think I might prefer him at blindside. Ditto Kruis for Sarries. I've been told that Savage's future with Glaws lies at blindside, that he's better there - j'nuh, correct me if wrong. Not really seen much of Garvey this season so I can't comment.

A lot of these guys do genuinely have the athletic chops for 6. Launchbury and Kruis in particular have plenty of pace and are strong ball carriers. That's one half of the puzzle that keeps locks out of the back row, the other tends to be they're too tall to really impact the breakdown, doesn't have to be that way but often is - can't really speak reliably on that.

Few people are equally strong in two positions, but I see no issue with them playing 6 - scrummaging at 4 is not a massively specialist endeavour, and the more time they get on the ball and the more time they spend in breakdowns the better for their development really.

Personally, I'd like to see Slater/Attwood/Launchbury tried out as a 4/5/6 combo this tour. Because that's big.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think we actually agree on this.
Admittedly I'm not in a position to say which they are better at, just that it's very rare to find someone who can play equally well in both positions.
Because, from a bio-mechanical point of view, they have different demands and for most people meeting all of those is not possible.
I don't think you should develop players with a mind to having them play in more than one position.

Slater/Attwood/Launchbury would be good, would it be any better than Slater/Attwood/Wood though?
I think Lawes needs to show he is still at the same level as Launchbury and Parling.
Ideally we'd finish this tour having Slater and Attwood cementing themselves as our two number 5's and Lawes proving his potential at 4.

 

[j'nuh]

Launchbury is at least as good at blindside as at lock in the Pests games I've seen - I think I might prefer him at blindside. Ditto Kruis for Sarries. I've been told that Savage's future with Glaws lies at blindside, that he's better there - j'nuh, correct me if wrong. Not really seen much of Garvey this season so I can't comment.

A lot of these guys do genuinely have the athletic chops for 6. Launchbury and Kruis in particular have plenty of pace and are strong ball carriers. That's one half of the puzzle that keeps locks out of the back row, the other tends to be they're too tall to really impact the breakdown, doesn't have to be that way but often is - can't really speak reliably on that.

Few people are equally strong in two positions, but I see no issue with them playing 6 - scrummaging at 4 is not a massively specialist endeavour, and the more time they get on the ball and the more time they spend in breakdowns the better for their development really.

Personally, I'd like to see Slater/Attwood/Launchbury tried out as a 4/5/6 combo this tour. Because that's big.

Most people do feel he makes for a better 6. But too much competition for 6/7 and not enough second row cover will probably push Savage into the 4 shirt. Assuming Morgan is at 8, you have Qera, Kalamafoni, Kvesic, Hazell, Cox, Evans plus another 4 guys in the academy (including Moriaty, from the England U20s) vying for just two shirts. The second row situation is Hudson, Lokotui, James (will retire soon) and just Stooke stepping up from the academy.

 

[Croket66]

Argentina squad to face England and Georgia :
Props : Maxiliamo Bustos (Montpellier HR), Francisco Gómez Kodela (Biarritz Olympique), Pablo Henn (CA Brive), Bruno Postiglioni (La Plata RC), Guillermo Roan (Cavalieri Prato)
Hookers : Martín García Veiga (C&RC), Mauricio Guidone (La Plata RC)
Locks : Mariano Galarza (Universitario de La Plata), Esteban Lozada (SU Agen), Tomás Vallejos Cinalli (Coca Cola West Red Sparks)
Back row : Rodrigo Baez (Liceo RC), Tomás De la Vega (CUBA), Julio Farías Cabello (London Welsh), Tomás Leonardi (Southern Kings), Benjamín Macome (Tucumán R.C.)
Scrum halves : Tomás Cubelli (Belgrano Athletic), Martin Landajo (CASI) , Nicolás Vergallo (Southern Kings)
Fly halves : Felipe Contepomi (Stade Français), Benjamín Madero (SIC), Benjamín Urdapilleta (US Oyonnax)
Centres : Gabriel Ascarate (US Carcassonne), Matías Orlando (Huirapuca), Gonzalo Tiesi (London Welsh)
Wings : Belisario Agulla (SU Agen), Manuel Montero (Pucará)
Full backs : Martin Bustos-Moyano (Montpellier HR), Tomás Carrió (Duendes RC)

 

[Maverick1987]

Am I the only one surprised that Tigers prefer Kitchener to Slater to start?

What does Deacon even do nowadays - A games?

Maverick! I'd be extremely surprised if Sky Sports don't get coverage of this. First string England if your willing to overlook the absence of the Lions guys. 9/10 Sky even get saxons games.

Thanks alot for the helpful answers guys ! I live in Wales so don't think i solely put up with did you see how the welsh players won that game for the lions ^^ at least now i can hibernate in my house and watch with interest on how the youngsters that are highly tipped for great things play in the white shirt

 

[psychic duck]

Missing Argentine players for the June squad who will play in Rugby Championship instead:
1 Horacio Agulla (Bath)
2 Patricio Albacete (Toulouse)
3 Marcos Ayerza (Leicester)
4 Marcelo Bosch (Saracens)
5 Gonzalo Camacho (Leicester)
6 Manuel Carizza (Unattached)
7 Agustín Creevy (Worcester)
8 Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe (Toulon)
9 Santiago Fernández (Castres)
10 Juan Figallo (Montpellier)
11 Lucas González Amorosino (Montpellier)
12 Eusebio Guiñazú (Bath)
13 Juan Martín Hernández (Racing Metro)
14 Juan José Imhoff (Racing Metro)
15 Juan Manuel Leguizamón (Lyon)
16 Juan Pablo Orlandi (Bath)
17 Martín Rodríguez (Stade Francais)
18 Nicolás Sánchez (Bordeaux Begles)
19 Leonardo Senatore (Worcester)
20 Nahuel Lobo (Montpellier)
21 Joaquín Tuculet (Grenoble)

Also can a moderator correct the ***le of this thread please?

 

[McTallshort]

Being able to play lock and flanker in the Premiership makes you an athletic freak by definition! Maybe define what exactly you mean by the words?

Croft can, he can play on the wing too if needed.........

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

On the Lock front i think Lawes needs to improve quite a bit to stay in the international squad. He puts in massive hits but his ball carrying, rucking, scrummaging and lineout need a lot of work.
When he plays for the saints he takes the 5 position in the scrum not the 4 and he doesn't run the lineout at all....

Where as Attwood does play the 4 in the scrum and he helps run the lineout and his ball carrying is better.

I think Lawes needs to ad some weight and become a monster as he doesn't really get to usse his speed that much playing at lock. I'd like to see

Attwood & Lauchberry for starters and see how that goes.

As for Tom Croft i don't rate him at all as a 6, i have no idea why anyone infact rates him as a 6. He doesn't do anywhere near the amount of work the somelike tom wood does and doesn't offer the physicality of Lauchberry. He might make a good winger but he just doesn't do the job of a flanker. No idea why he is a lion apart from his pace? But why does your 6 need to be the fastest 6 around? Isn't that your 7's job to be quick?

Rant over

 

[McTallshort]

On the Lock front i think Lawes needs to improve quite a bit to stay in the international squad. He puts in massive hits but his ball carrying, rucking, scrummaging and lineout need a lot of work.
When he plays for the saints he takes the 5 position in the scrum not the 4 and he doesn't run the lineout at all....

Where as Attwood does play the 4 in the scrum and he helps run the lineout and his ball carrying is better.

I think Lawes needs to ad some weight and become a monster as he doesn't really get to usse his speed that much playing at lock. I'd like to see

Attwood & Lauchberry for starters and see how that goes.

As for Tom Croft i don't rate him at all as a 6, i have no idea why anyone infact rates him as a 6. He doesn't do anywhere near the amount of work the somelike tom wood does and doesn't offer the physicality of Lauchberry. He might make a good winger but he just doesn't do the job of a flanker. No idea why he is a lion apart from his pace? But why does your 6 need to be the fastest 6 around? Isn't that your 7's job to be quick?

Rant over

Very very lazy stereo type

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Very very lazy stereo type

But everytime he plays for leicester or england he is either waiting on the wing or getting smashed back in a ruck.

I think Croft is a talented man but doesn't do enough No. 6 duties for me when i see him play and with me being in the midlands i do end up seeing quite a few tigers matches. I'd rather have by 6 smashing rucks and smashing tackles rather than doing the link man roles with the backs which is more of a 7 job.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Croft is phenomenal when his team is on the front foot. But for the most part he doesn't really help teams get traction in tighter games, outside of his lineout work, which is always great.
Another "lazy" stereotype: He's a luxury player.
Having said that, he has improved his weaknesses markedly since coming back from injury. They are not as exaggerated as before, but they are still definitely there imo.
I'd still take Wood over him, nine times out of ten.


I will be really interested to see how the new coaches work out, I think they are both being groomed by Lancaster for possible future national roles.
Which is good to see, as I don't recall there being any forward planning in this regard before?

 

[ZeFrenchy]

England will be playing almost exclusively against amateur players. The Argentina squad is a disgrace to test rugby, while the South America XV, unless it looks a lot like Argentina A, is going to take 100 points.

 

[psychic duck]

England will be playing almost exclusively against amateur players. The Argentina squad is a disgrace to test rugby, while the South America XV, unless it looks a lot like Argentina A, is going to take 100 points.

ZeFrenchy. To call the weakened Argentina team "amateur" is misleading. There are a few players in France, a couple in South Africa. And all the elite Argentine based players are now professional and rugby players for a living. So in reality there are about 2 players not part of the UAR performance squads or playing in Europe or South Africa.

The South America XV is going to basically be made up mostly of the Argentine players in the squad who didn't play in the England match. A few Uruguayans and about one Brazilian and Chilean (http://www.rugbynews.com.uy/banner/como-sera-el-plantel-de-sudamerica-xv/). So basically bar a few other South Americans it will be Argentina B.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

ZeFrenchy. To call the weakened Argentina team "amateur" is misleading. There are a few players in France, a couple in South Africa. And all the elite Argentine based players are now professional and rugby players for a living. So in reality there are about 2 players not part of the UAR performance squads or playing in Europe or South Africa.

The South America XV is going to basically be made up mostly of the Argentine players in the squad who didn't play in the England match. A few Uruguayans and about one Brazilian and Chilean (http://www.rugbynews.com.uy/banner/como-sera-el-plantel-de-sudamerica-xv/). So basically bar a few other South Americans it will be Argentina B.

Yeah, maybe "amateur" was misleading, but they have a player that was second choice for a team that got relegated in France, and two others that are not starters in South Africa's worse Super rugby team. Add a few Pampas, one retired player and three or four more who alternate starts and benches in France... Hardly an appropriate squad to receive England.
Kudos to the English though, that planned this tour knowing that this was likely to happen, that will add very little to them and that may help a lot their South American counterparts.

 

[KAPman]

think its christian wade's time to stake a claim to make the england wing spot his own. On form this season, he deserves it more than ashton. For me, Ashton needs to improve both his tackle technique and his arrogant attitude in matches. Christian Wade looks a far more complete winger, and now he needs his chance at the highest level to prove himself

 

[Crapspray]

I will be really interested to see how the new coaches work out, I think they are both being groomed by Lancaster for possible future national roles.
Which is good to see, as I don't recall there being any forward planning in this regard before?

Perhaps we will see two forwards coaches; mirroring Catt and Farrell in the backs. Catt's role is "attacking skills" so perhaps we'll see a "breakdown skills" coach, or something similar, in the near future. I'm not sure, but wasn't Baxter selected for his coaching of the breakdown?

My main interest with coaching is if Catt is given the lead in the backs. I can't help but feel he is lower in the ranks than Andy Farrell, as he's a late-comer, so if he's given full rein it'll be interesting to see the effect it has on the side.

 

[McTallshort]

Croft is phenomenal when his team is on the front foot. But for the most part he doesn't really help teams get traction in tighter games, outside of his lineout work, which is always great.
Another "lazy" stereotype: He's a luxury player.
Having said that, he has improved his weaknesses markedly since coming back from injury. They are not as exaggerated as before, but they are still definitely there imo.
I'd still take Wood over him, nine times out of ten.


I will be really interested to see how the new coaches work out, I think they are both being groomed by Lancaster for possible future national roles.
Which is good to see, as I don't recall there being any forward planning in this regard before?

Try saving tackle against Quins on Danny Care?

 

[Peat]

Rats - Its very rare to find someone who plays both equally well as a) the positions do call for somewhat different instincts in loose play, although I imagine that's less of an issue in professional rugby b) by and large, most players end up specialising, which means they don't get the chance to show if they can.

The height issue is overstated. It can be difficult to move the breakdown at 6'6", but just look at Paul O'Connell - it is doable. Kaino is 6'5", Smith was 6'5", Jason White etc.etc. It's a matter of practice; mainly a lot of locks are simply too slow, but increasingly this ain't so, there are plenty of young locks with real gas, and I think a lot of them look better at blindside. Partially because that's easier to look good at blindside, but because at blindside they're hugely physical specimens, which is of great use; at lock, they're really athletic, which is great to have, but they're not outstandingly strong, and you really want both.

I think if you left Launchbury at 6, he'd definitely be better than Wood; he's a better athlete, and I think he's a better ball handler too. Mindyou, I'm not a huge Tom Wood fan - talented, but I doubt he'll ever be one of the greats. I'll always take Croft, although I disagree with the way his coaches use him.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Try saving tackle against Quins on Danny Care?

One tackle does not equal traction.

Look at the Wales game, the team played badly on the whole, but Croft was anonymous. I know there are a couple of other players who were too, but that's the sort of game his skills aren't really applicable to.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just watching various game highlights etc. and I really can't wait to have Corbisiero back.
Hopefully he's gotten over his injury problems with his latest long layoff, we've really missed him at #1.



Ah, just watching the All Blacks game: Wood is wasted at 8, going to be good to have him back on the flank with a big carrier (Morgan/Billy V) at 8. Corbisiero is our best scrummaging loosehead by a country mile, hopefully will have nailed down the #1 shirt by the time they leave Argentina, and then Mako can have the 17 shirt when he's back.
Goode is useless! So many poor decisions in this game and I'm only 20 odd mins in.
Also Farrell needs to get back on form because he controlled, kicked, distributed and carried very well here.