England's Argetine Adventure

[ratsapprentice]

Farrell's never really been "in form" though, he's generally inconsistent from match to match.
He's never played consistently for long enough to gauge what his base level is, he's played well in matches back to back before, but never more than that from what I've seen.

Agree with you on Corbs, but I'd extend that to pretty much all the players! All the new guys/guys coming back in and even Tom Wood, I'm interested to see how well he works as captain.

 

[Crapspray]

From what I remember Farrell goes to shite at the end of seasons. He was awful against the Barbarians this time last year, and in both semi-finals this year has been less than impressive. I suppose the Lions tour will be the test.

Actually, going back to the All Blacks game, could it be over-confidence? He was dropped for Flood and had to fight for the shirt back, he then put in a good shift. As he has spent more time as starting 10, with no real challenge, he's become sloppy and lazy. Maybe he just needs a good reality-check every now and then to get the best out of him. I hope Burns gives him one this summer; the two of them complement each other quite nicely, and both in form would be great for England.

As with Corbisiero, Morgan's another player I'll be glad to see back. Wins few accolades, but when he was injured he was sorely missed.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

My problem with Farrell though is that since playing for England he seems to make a lot of hospital passes. He doesn't seem to find space or open up play.
I hope that Lancaster has seem that the whole backline needs re-jigging not just the wings. I really can't remember a time when the best backs in england were actually in the england team, no idea why every coach avoids good backs until they are forced into it?

Are our coaches looking at different stats to others?

 

[Crapspray]

Are our coaches looking at different stats to others?

I think it's conservatism. As long as the backs aren't appalling England are reluctant to change them. Johnson was guilty of it in 10/11. As was Lancaster in the Six Nations.

Hopefully, as is suggested in the article ratsapprentice linked earlier, 'good enough' has been replaced with 'good' as a policy. Judging by the tour squad, Lancaster does seem to have realised this.

 

[Peat]

From what I remember Farrell goes to shite at the end of seasons. He was awful against the Barbarians this time last year, and in both semi-finals this year has been less than impressive. I suppose the Lions tour will be the test.

Actually, going back to the All Blacks game, could it be over-confidence? He was dropped for Flood and had to fight for the shirt back, he then put in a good shift. As he has spent more time as starting 10, with no real challenge, he's become sloppy and lazy. Maybe he just needs a good reality-check every now and then to get the best out of him. I hope Burns gives him one this summer; the two of them complement each other quite nicely, and both in form would be great for England.

As with Corbisiero, Morgan's another player I'll be glad to see back. Wins few accolades, but when he was injured he was sorely missed.

Farrell's best two games have come in games where we absolutely bossed the breakdown, and bossed it at a level we have come nowhere close to in a great many games.

This is not a coincidence. Any fly-half can look good with an armchair ride. I'd like to see him show the form of the NZ and Scotland games in a game where his pack isn't Lords and Masters of all they survey.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Farrell's best two games have come in games where we absolutely bossed the breakdown, and bossed it at a level we have come nowhere close to in a great many games.

This is not a coincidence. Any fly-half can look good with an armchair ride. I'd like to see him show the form of the NZ and Scotland games in a game where his pack isn't Lords and Masters of all they survey.

I see what you mean thinking about things. I guess Burns will be better at that as he will be more used to being behind a pack thats goijng backwards a bit (no offence meant but compared to sarries).

So anyone know if Yarde has progressed more than Wade or May?I've not seem much Orish this season so can't really judge if he is fast, big, skilled, stepping winger?

 

[Crapspray]

Farrell's best two games have come in games where we absolutely bossed the breakdown, and bossed it at a level we have come nowhere close to in a great many games.

On the other hand, he's had to play in games where the opposite is true. And has been made to look worse as a result. I'm no proponent of Farrell, but I can't see any other fly-half who one could definitively say would do better with the current back line. Can you? They're all incomplete one way or another.

I'd like to see him show the form of the NZ and Scotland games in a game where his pack isn't Lords and Masters of all they survey.

As would I. I'd like to see him attempt it with a good back line though.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

So anyone know if Yarde has progressed more than Wade or May?I've not seem much Orish this season so can't really judge if he is fast, big, skilled, stepping winger?

Not even close.
I'm a big fan of Yarde, don't get me wrong, but May and Wade a step above.
He's still very very young (like 21?) so it's not as if he's the done deal, mind - and he is fast, relatively big, and pretty skilled.
Been playing well this season, though - guess it's hard to really showcase your skills that much in a team that played as badly (at times) as Irish this season. I was surprised he was named in the EPS, but his inclusion is a step in the right direction.

I think Watson will overtake Yarde when he starts getting more and more senior rugby (though he's not at Bath, so comparison isn't that great )

 

[ratsapprentice]

Watson is more than likely going to be set-up as the replacement for Abendanon... can't see him being played as a winger all that much.

I'm no proponent of Farrell, but I can't see any other fly-half who one could definitively say would do better with the current back line. Can you? They're all incomplete one way or another.

I'm hoping Burns can.

 

[j'nuh]

I don't envy Lancaster's eventual task of picking 3 from all the back 3 prospects on the way and current players. There's a lot of talent there.

 

[Peat]

I don't think Farrell's played in too many games where a fly-half would struggle to shine tbh. My take is that in normal operating conditions he looks very ordinary in terms of creativity, although given lots of time he can produce some very good moments. His passing isn't good enough off his left either. Don't think the blame can be attached to his backline either. Barritt looked very good for Sarries in the group stages (with Hodgson at fly-half...) while Tuilagi has been very, very good on a number of occasions. Getting those two beyond the gainline with even halfway good ball should not be beyond the wit of the average fly-half. No, its not quite Roberts-O'Driscoll of 2009, but it ain't bad. I will be keenly interested in seeing how Burns goes, and wouldn't count out a resurgence of Flood either. Both are far more complete attacking players.

 

[j'nuh]

I agree with Peat.

The difference between Burns and Farrell for me, and why Burns is better, is that Farrell is a safe option to make sure a dominant performance by the pack will be rewarded with a win, whereas Burns can play a team into a win.

Creatively, Burns is leagues ahead of Farrell. In terms of ability to control a game, I'd also take Burns. His distribution is far better too. Farrell edges Burns in goal kicking and fitness. The one thing that keeps Farrell in the mix, though, is that he's a far more competent defender. Burns' is prone to defensive lapses, especially missed tackles. But I will eat 50 slugs if he doesn't improve this facet of his game in the coming years. It's something that should come with age, and when it does, Burns will have a very good shot at being one of the best fly-halves in the world.

 

[Patchey]

I agree with Peat.

The difference between Burns and Farrell for me, and why Burns is better, is that Farrell is a safe option to make sure a dominant performance by the pack will be rewarded with a win, whereas Burns can play a team into a win.

Creatively, Burns is leagues ahead of Farrell. In terms of ability to control a game, I'd also take Burns. His distribution is far better too. Farrell edges Burns in goal kicking and fitness. The one thing that keeps Farrell in the mix, though, is that he's a far more competent defender. Burns' is prone to defensive lapses, especially missed tackles. But I will eat 50 slugs if he doesn't improve this facet of his game in the coming years. It's something that should come with age, and when it does, Burns will have a very good shot at being one of the best fly-halves in the world.

That is a very bold statement there. Best fly-half in England or even Europe perhaps but I can't see him rivaling the up and coming SH 10s such as Goosen, Cruden, Tom Taylor or reaching the level of someone like DC. Of course I would be more than happy to be proved wrong on this.

I think part of Farrell's problem is getting game time at 10 for Sarries. Despite saying that they're going to give him more time at 10 the Sarries management are never seriously going to sacrifice Hodgson's skills, especially as Farrell Sr isn't in the set up anymore. Farrell's performance in the semi-finals is even more likely to see him shoe horned in at 12 where he is never likely to play for England again. Had Farrell been Sarrie's number one option at fly-half this season I honestly think we would have seen more of those Scotland or All Black match performances.

Going back to the tour, I am really going to be interested in seeing Daly play against England for the BaBaas. While I'd love to see him embarrass Goode I think a better test would be if Foden or Brown start for England as they are, hopefully, going to be challenging for the 15 shirt long after Goode is back in the Saxons/Sarries squad/forwards.

 

[ratsapprentice]

<small class="time"></small>.<s>@</s>SaintsRugby pair Luther Burrell and Stephen Myler added to ENG tour squad after injuries to Alex Goode (shoulder) and Joel Tomkins (ankle)

GOODE IS OUT!!!!!

 

[Peat]

Wow. Goode was deffo there as fly-half cover then. Also, Myler, oh joy...

 

[ratsapprentice]

I believed Lancaster genuinely brought Goode as FH cover.
And.....

With nine tourists in <s>@</s>premrugby final, Haydn Thomas and Kearnan Myall added to 25-man squad to play Barbarians on Sun at Twickenham <s>#</s>rugby

Comforting to see that Robson isn't getting picked anymore.

So, we can pretty much name the BaBaas 23...

1. Corbs
2. Webber
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Johnson
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan
9. Wigglesworth
10. Burns
11. May
12. 36
13. JJ
14. Wade
15. Brown

16. Paice
17. Marler
18. Henry Thomas
19. Vunipola
20. Myall
21. Haydn Thomas
22. Foden
23. Strettle

"Definites" in bold.

According to the revised squad list, Goode and Tomkins are out for the entire tour.
I'm personally more excited about Burrell than Tomkins, and obviously Goode shouldn't really have been there.

 

[Patchey]

Confirmation from the RFU: http://www.rfu.com/news/2013/may/news-articles/200513_burrell_myler_called_up (with a list of both the touring and BaBaas squad).

Myler>Goode any day simply because Myler is a fly-half.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Happy to see Tomkins out! Burrell is far better
Dont like myler but equally dont like goode
Love myall, hes brilliant - Thomas classy as well

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ratsapprentice]

I can't see anyone - bar Tomkins fans - being upset by any of this.

Completely agree on Burrell being better than Tomkins, he's also improving pretty significantly.
The only question is, where is he going to play: 12 or 13?
Has he played OC for Saints?

Other than JJ we don't have any outside centers.

 

[j'nuh]

1. Over the moon that Haydn Thomas has received a call up. I think he should be in the EPS with Care and Youngs. Hope that this means that Lancaster hasn't completely discounted the older generation. Dan Robson should soon displace Wigglesworth. If Sarries had a sense of the long-game, then Spencer could be doing the same right now too. (Robson seconded Spencer at U20s, but has developed a hell of a lot faster since because he's been getting game time.)

2. Myler isn't good enough to challenge Farrell-Burns-Flood and isn't young enough to improve much. Would have taken Ford, or just used Twelvetrees and Eastmond to cover.

3. Hate wishing injuries, but Goode's injury could put an end to the back 3 madness. Cool beans.

4. Myall is a decent enough option, but Garvey would have been my choice.

I can't see anyone - bar Tomkins fans - being upset by any of this.

Completely agree on Burrell being better than Tomkins, he's also improving pretty significantly.
The only question is, where is he going to play: 12 or 13?
Has he played OC for Saints?

Other than JJ we don't have any outside centers.

Daly should 100% be there.

That is a very bold statement there. Best fly-half in England or even Europe perhaps but I can't see him rivaling the up and coming SH 10s such as Goosen, Cruden, Tom Taylor or reaching the level of someone like DC. Of course I would be more than happy to be proved wrong on this.

I think part of Farrell's problem is getting game time at 10 for Sarries. Despite saying that they're going to give him more time at 10 the Sarries management are never seriously going to sacrifice Hodgson's skills, especially as Farrell Sr isn't in the set up anymore. Farrell's performance in the semi-finals is even more likely to see him shoe horned in at 12 where he is never likely to play for England again. Had Farrell been Sarrie's number one option at fly-half this season I honestly think we would have seen more of those Scotland or All Black match performances.

Going back to the tour, I am really going to be interested in seeing Daly play against England for the BaBaas. While I'd love to see him embarrass Goode I think a better test would be if Foden or Brown start for England as they are, hopefully, going to be challenging for the 15 shirt long after Goode is back in the Saxons/Sarries squad/forwards.

I know it's a big if. But Burns has a hell of a lot of natural talent. His strengths are in areas that are hard to coach (his creativity, awareness etc.), and his weaknesses are in areas that will be improved with age and gym work. And he appears to be steadily improving. It's optimistic, but I think he could be up there.