England World Cup Squad

[Geordie]

Just out of curiosity...why is there such a massive downer on SB? He just seems to be getting huge criticism without really having had much time in the role.

And dont forget he has the shambles of Jones reign to tidy up aswell.

 

[BrokenWing]

Hes a witty guy...he puts on the dull facade for the media....

A chilled out entertainer...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

And dont forget he has the shambles of Jones reign to tidy up aswell.

Don't buy this excuse for him tbh - I get not making your mind up on his entire ability as an England coach based on the 6N - but the 6N was as negative as any dross we've played under EJ in the past few years and he was in charge of that, and with an attack coach that definitely does not play that way usually
It's not like the players were all playing crap for their clubs and he brought them into England and said "ok lads, we'll try our best" - he took players playing well and stifled them, and you can't blame EJ for that


My main issue with Borthwick is it's too soon - he had a very good season with Tigers when they won the prem, but then looked to have some serious second season syndrome before leaving for England.
He also brought in his whole Tigers coaching staff to England, which I do get cause he's the one who assembled them at Tigers, but they're all very inexperienced - like our HC, Defence and Attack coaches, combined, have about one world cup cycle between them working in those roles

His preferred style of play isn't very aesthetic/entertaining as well, which is OK when you're winning but when you're losing it can lose the good favour of the crowds pretty quickly

 

[Geordie]

Don't buy this excuse for him tbh - I get not making your mind up on his entire ability as an England coach based on the 6N - but the 6N was as negative as any dross we've played under EJ in the past few years and he was in charge of that, and with an attack coach that definitely does not play that way usually
It's not like the players were all playing crap for their clubs and he brought them into England and said "ok lads, we'll try our best" - he took players playing well and stifled them, and you can't blame EJ for that


My main issue with Borthwick is it's too soon - he had a very good season with Tigers when they won the prem, but then looked to have some serious second season syndrome before leaving for England.
He also brought in his whole Tigers coaching staff to England, which I do get cause he's the one who assembled them at Tigers, but they're all very inexperienced - like our HC, Defence and Attack coaches, combined, have about one world cup cycle between them working in those roles

His preferred style of play isn't very aesthetic/entertaining as well, which is OK when you're winning but when you're losing it can lose the good favour of the crowds pretty quickly

Im in two minds.
The defence was poor, the France thing an abomination etc etc. but the scrum improved and the lineout went well. Did he stifle the players or try to give them basic instructions and roles....as opposed to the free roles that Jones had given them and seemed to be confusing them. I do expect this team to be very structured come the world cup. Not pretty but hopefully efficient and drilled...and post world cup they can worry about evolving...

It may be too soon...only time will tell..but realistically who was available and wanted the job. And it really was time for Jones to go.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

but realistically who was available and wanted the job

Shaun Edwards, Mike Forshaw, Lee Blackett would've been a much better lineup, and all three were theoretically available (or at least - Edwards had said he'd take the England head role, Forshaw was bought out of his Sale contract for significantly less than the RFU paid for Sinfield, and Blackett was only in a temp role at Scarlets)

Likely would've had to wait until post RWC for Edwards, tbf, but if the RFU were willing to throw as much cash at Tigers as they did then they probably could've done the same to the FRU tbf

Did he stifle the players or try to give them basic instructions and roles....as opposed to the free roles that Jones had given them and seemed to be confusing them.

If the basics are to play that bluntly then it's stifling, we looked really poor in the 6N. You can stick to basics and still look a decent side and attack well, we did neither.
I don't think anything about EJ's final few seasons screamed free - everything seemed to be follow the plan to a T, otherwise you'd have seen players playing like that for their clubs but you never did

 

[HamJan]

Just out of curiosity...why is there such a massive downer on SB? He just seems to be getting huge criticism without really having had much time in the role.

And dont forget he has the shambles of Jones reign to tidy up aswell.

I haven't got a downer on SB, but I don't feel excited about him as coach, which I think is from my memory of him as the England captain. He always seemed to be barking instructions at the whole team from the moment he stepped on the pitch and right up to the kick off. Surely professional sportsmen don't need constant instruction. Add to that, the backs never got the ball until he'd finished with it.

TBH I don't think there was any other coach in the frame right from the get go. He had international coaching experience with Japan, England and B&I Lions and early success with Leicester which ticked all the boxes that Bill Sweeney could think up.

 

[Geordie]

Ollie Chessum has been pictured taking part in scrum sessions...and apparently him and George Martin have been alternating between lock and 6. Read in to that what you will.

Good to see Ollie back though...

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Ollie Chessum has been pictured taking part in scrum sessions...and apparently him and George Martin have been alternating between lock and 6. Read in to that what you will.

Makes perfect sense for both to be getting reps at 6 in case either has to cover there during a game. Pretty standard practice. Non-story IMO.

 

[Geordie]

Does that suggest hes going with Lawes at 6 and wants a similar style replacement if required.
Im just glad to see Ollie back and two of our bright hopes at lock both heavily involved.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Also with the numbers going down locks who can cover 6 are more valuable than back towers who cover the whole row I feel.

Just because lock is very attritional

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Also with the numbers going down locks who can cover 6 are more valuable than back towers who cover the whole row I feel.

Just because lock is very attritional

Yeah I reckon if Chessum is fit he comes in for a backrower rather than a second rower,

From my earlier prediction:

So if we had similar makeup this time maybe
Itoje, Martin, Ribbans (Lawes)
Curry, J.Willis, Ludlam, T.Willis, Dombrandt

I could see Chessum in for T.Willis

4. Itoje, Martin, Lawes
5. Chessum, Ribbans
6. Curry, Ludlam, Lawes, Martin, Chessum, Itoje
7. Willis, Curry, Ludlam
8. Dombrandt, Curry, Ludlam, Chessum

Plenty of combinations to cover knocks etc.

 

[Saintjay]

The Times writers betting on both Willis brothers going, Chessum and Billy V going (depending on fitness) Evidently England keen for Billy to be the starting 8. With four out and out locks and Lawes as a 6.

Ludlam and Dombrandt to miss out along with Marcus Smith.

They made a point of more kicking from midfield instead of 9 in the Rugby Championship. So they went with backs with kicking options ie Daly, Malins, Watson, Slade amongst others.

We shall see i guess.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ludlam missing out would be such a kick in the ***s,

Interested to see the squad makeup: We get two additional players but one of those has to be a prop, the other could be a back 5 forward but I think we'll probably take three scrumhalves

All told in 2019:

Loosehead: 3
Hooker: 3
Tighthead: 2
Lock: 4
Backrow (not inc. Lawes): 5
Scrumhalf: 2
Flyhalf: 2
Centre (not inc. Faz/Daly): 4
Backthree: 6
Total: 31

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Ludlam missing out would be such a kick in the ***s,

Interested to see the squad makeup: We get two additional players but one of those has to be a prop, the other could be a back 5 forward but I think we'll probably take three scrumhalves

All told in 2019:

Loosehead: 3
Hooker: 3
Tighthead: 2
Lock: 4
Backrow (not inc. Lawes): 5
Scrumhalf: 2
Flyhalf: 2
Centre (not inc. Faz/Daly): 4
Backthree: 6
Total: 31

Can't see Borthwick bothering with 6 back three players. We only really took that many in 2019 because Eddie wanted to take Nowell, who wasn't fit, and so McConnochie had to come to fill in during the pool games (of course, Nowell never got fit anyway).

Think this time round Borthwick will either take an extra back rower or 10 in the back three's place.

So:
3 Hookers
6 Props
4 Locks
5 or 6 Back Rowers
3 Scrum Halves
2 or 3 Fly Halves
4 Centres
5 Back Three

So in a weird way it may well come down to T. Willis vs M. Smith for a spot.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Can't see Borthwick bothering with 6 back three players. We only really took that many in 2019 because Eddie wanted to take Nowell, who wasn't fit, and so McConnochie had to come to fill in during the pool games (of course, Nowell never got fit anyway).

Think this time round Borthwick will either take an extra back rower or 10 in the back three's place.

So:
3 Hookers
6 Props
4 Locks
5 or 6 Back Rowers
3 Scrum Halves
2 or 3 Fly Halves
4 Centres
5 Back Three

So in a weird way it may well come down to T. Willis vs M. Smith for a spot.

Yeah, that's true

For comparison our final 36 man squad in the 6N was:

Loosehead: 3
Hooker: 3
Tighthead: 3
Lock: 5 (inc Lawes, as he was used as lock sub in his only appearance)
Backrow: 6
Scrumhalf: 3
Flyhalf: 3
Centre: 4
Back three: 6

Drop a backrow, a flyhalf and a back three?

 

[Groundhog]

My GOAT, my

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

My guesses for englands squad:

Genge, Marler, Mako (or Rodd)
George, Dan, Walker
Sinckler, Stuart, Cole
Itoje, Ribbans, Chessum, Martin
Lawes, Curry, J willis
Billy, T Willis
Youngs, care, JVP
Farrell, Ford, smith
Lawrence, Manu, Slade,
Watson, coko, arundell, Malins, Daly, Stewart


It feels me with dread to even consider Billy v being back in an England shirt. I really want to see a good look cohesive England with some big smashing forwards and direct but skillful backs.

We shall see soon enough though.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

My guesses for englands squad:

Genge, Marler, Mako (or Rodd)
George, Dan, Walker
Sinckler, Stuart, Cole
Itoje, Ribbans, Chessum, Martin
Lawes, Curry, J willis
Billy, T Willis
Youngs, care, JVP
Farrell, Ford, smith
Lawrence, Manu, Slade,
Watson, coko, arundell, Malins, Daly, Stewart


It feels me with dread to even consider Billy v being back in an England shirt. I really want to see a good look cohesive England with some big smashing forwards and direct but skillful backs.

We shall see soon enough though.

Ditto,
Though I could see one of Smith or Malins out and Ludlam in

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Ditto,
Though I could see one of Smith or Malins out and Ludlam in

I think it would be mad to leave Smith at home. He's clearly not going to start, but he brings something different and has at least got the potential to be a game changer from the bench. Care probably being there just makes the case stronger. Ford and Farrell are experienced, but you kind of know what's coming.

Whether we need 3 fly halves, 2 of whom don't cover other positions and the other just one and averagely, is another matter.

BTW. Reading that Chessum's made great progress, but not quite back in full training yet, although it sounds like he'll definitely travel.

 

[TopTen2003]

I think in the back of SBs mind he has to have Lawes as that hybrid lock cover as minimum. If Chessum wasn't fit, you'd have Itoje and Ribbans as regular locks, Martin (who some people argue is, like Lawes, suited to a role at 6), which leaves you light if someone gets a knock.

Personally I hope that lets Tom Pearson in the door in the back row, him and Willis as your 7 options are strong, although his numbers suggest he can handle himself as a 6 too.

Not long to find out now. Looking forward to getting some warm up games in and seeing the building of some structure and combinations.