England vs New Zealand - 19/11/22

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Papali is a 7 for the Blues, Savea has been playing 8 for the Canes regularly now and Barrett was superb at 6 for ABs v the Boks in the RC.

Well in my opinion Papali looks too tall to play 7, Savea looks too small to play 8, and Barrett is just not good enough.

 

[Ferrari333SP]

Eddie Jones heavily implies that England will respond to haka

 

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[Which Tyler]

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

That'll put fear into them.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

So Cokanasiga is not fit, but fit enough to be on the bench for bath this weekend …

... yes?

Oddly enough, being fit enough to come off the bench for your club in a friendly against the Barbarians and being fit enough to play international rugby against the All Blacks are quite different things.

The England staff may well not be happy with Cokanasiga getting any game time at all this weekend, but once they handed him back to Bath it became the club's choice whether to play him or not.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

That'll put fear into them.

Beat me to it!

Formation sneering seemed to do the job last time.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Well in my opinion Papali looks too tall to play 7, Savea looks too small to play 8, and Barrett is just not good enough.

Have you actually seen Papali'i play? Lots of open sides have been big and tall - Francois Pienaar wore 6 for the Boks but was an open side and captained the 1995 to the RWC. Schalk Burger is another big open side who played there for the 2007 RWC winning team. Both around 6 foot 4 - same height as Papali'i.

There's no hard and fast rule that they have to be set height/size. Yes, fast enough in open field to link play and good over the ball. Nothing I gave seen from Papali'i suggests he's not good at either.

Savea is bigger than Simmonds who plays 8, but chosen at 6 for this. Pocock shifted to 8 to accommodate Hooper at 7 and Wallabies got all the way to a RWC final with that combo. He's a great ball carrier and can control the ball at the back of the scrum, plus added bonus of being good over the ball.

Barrett is a natural lock but a 6" 6 and over 17 and half stone. Big enough lump to be at 6 and has played and been good enough there to be ball carrier, tackler and offer a line out option. As I said he was very good there v SA in the RC.

 

[Which Tyler]

... yes?

Oddly enough, being fit enough to come off the bench for your club in a friendly against the Barbarians and being fit enough to play international rugby against the All Blacks are quite different things.

The England staff may well not be happy with Cokanasiga getting any game time at all this weekend, but once they handed him back to Bath it became the club's choice whether to play him or not.

This comment look eerily familiar...
Are you...
Are you one of my dissociatives?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Savea is bigger than Simmonds who plays 8, but chosen at 6 for this.

I agree with more or less everything you've said but Simmonds is a fair chunk bigger than Savea. Savea listed everywhere as 102-103kg whereas Chiefs list Simmonds at 108kg. I think Simmonds looks a fair bit bigger too.

Are you one of my dissociatives?

I want to say yes but all of the others are telling me to keep us a secret.

 

[Which Tyler]

I want to say yes but all of the others are telling me to keep us a secret.

Say Hi to Rocky for me will you - and tell him he's a good boy.

And yes, my Mrs says that one of my dissociatives is a dog - I'm not sure she's convinced that it's not actually just me

 

[TommiG88]

... yes?

Oddly enough, being fit enough to come off the bench for your club in a friendly against the Barbarians and being fit enough to play international rugby against the All Blacks are quite different things.

The England staff may well not be happy with Cokanasiga getting any game time at all this weekend, but once they handed him back to Bath it became the club's choice whether to play him or not.

BBC reported he had picked up an injury was the reason he was dropped, yet he's playing within the week. Friendly or not.

Also cheer up grumps

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Also cheer up grumps

Sorry, got assignments due in soon and instead I'm wasting my time on here. Coping by taking the stress out on unsuspecting TRF members.

 

[BPM]

Have you actually seen Papali'i play? Lots of open sides have been big and tall - Francois Pienaar wore 6 for the Boks but was an open side and captained the 1995 to the RWC. Schalk Burger is another big open side who played there for the 2007 RWC winning team. Both around 6 foot 4 - same height as Papali'i.

There's no hard and fast rule that they have to be set height/size. Yes, fast enough in open field to link play and good over the ball. Nothing I gave seen from Papali'i suggests he's not good at either.

Savea is bigger than Simmonds who plays 8, but chosen at 6 for this. Pocock shifted to 8 to accommodate Hooper at 7 and Wallabies got all the way to a RWC final with that combo. He's a great ball carrier and can control the ball at the back of the scrum, plus added bonus of being good over the ball.

Barrett is a natural lock but a 6" 6 and over 17 and half stone. Big enough lump to be at 6 and has played and been good enough there to be ball carrier, tackler and offer a line out option. As I said he was very good there v SA in the RC.

Agree with all of the above - @AngloScotsHybrid basing your opinion of whether a player can be effective in a position because of the way they 'look', is a very poor way to judge.

Jack Willis is only marginally shorter than Papali'i and I doubt anyone would complain if he'd been picked at 7 for England.

Savea has been one of the most effective carrying 8s in the world over the past few years - I can assure you, none of the players he's run over since he moved to 8 have thought he was 'too small'.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

It may not be the place to discuss this, but I was always surprised that Papalii was never looked at as a successor to Read at 8. They're built almost identically and IMO are very similar in playing style. Papalii isn't an amazing ball carrier, but then Read never was either. Both like to act as link men in the wild channels and use their handling/offloading ability. I guess with Ioane and Sotutu at the Blues it made most sense to keep Papalii at 7 to accommodate the other 2, but I'd be interested in the opinions of any NZ posters as to why Papalii was never tried at 8 for either club or country.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Agree with all of the above - @AngloScotsHybrid basing your opinion of whether a player can be effective in a position because of the way they 'look', is a very poor way to judge.

Jack Willis is only marginally shorter than Papali'i and I doubt anyone would complain if he'd been picked at 7 for England.

Savea has been one of the most effective carrying 8s in the world over the past few years - I can assure you, none of the players he's run over since he moved to 8 have thought he was 'too small'.

"Yeah but if you were bigger you would have run over me even better"

 

[Umaga's Witness]

This will be the 64th time, taking down Botha / Matfield's record.

I think that record was for starting tests together? Could have been more if you count bench appearances although these two probably haven't come off the bench often

 

[Umaga's Witness]

It may not be the place to discuss this, but I was always surprised that Papalii was never looked at as a successor to Read at 8. They're built almost identically and IMO are very similar in playing style. Papalii isn't an amazing ball carrier, but then Read never was either. Both like to act as link men in the wild channels and use their handling/offloading ability. I guess with Ioane and Sotutu at the Blues it made most sense to keep Papalii at 7 to accommodate the other 2, but I'd be interested in the opinions of any NZ posters as to why Papalii was never tried at 8 for either club or country.

Some stats from super rugby showed papalii Carries a lot but almost never passes the ball. Now I think that's mostly his role given the blues have sotutu and akira making up the rest of the trio, but I wouldn't be confident in his passing ability as an 8 having not seen much of it. He started out as a six and was very good there - often holding players up to create a maul situation and getting a turnover from that. I'm not sure he has the acceleration we'd want from an 8 either. He is fast, but I just don't know about the first 5-10 metres.

but it's an interesting thought I have to say I had never previously considered. So it may take some time for me to solidify my opinion on that one.

Could well be an option, but close to zero chance of it happening given at the moment at least sotutu, sowakula, ione, mikaele-tuu, jacobson, savea, grace, blackadder are likely preferred there

 

[Kiwiwomble]

View attachment 15500

thats a pretty strong team, glad tela gets the nod after a solid game last week

I prefer Scott barrett as a lock but hes made some big leaps as a 6 since 2019. given frizell and Ioane have been know to disappear in games recently i can see why they giving him the go

like most i would start sami...but, as long as taylor doesnt **** the bed...sami could make a big impact on the game off the bench against the tiring defence

that bench just shouts hoping to be within touch into the second half and then trying to speed things up, sami, frizell, sotutu and TJP (running not passing)

i would say we can expect to see the ABs try and keep it tight in the forwards with lots of kick and chase for the back in the first half....and then change gears with pick and goes, attacking lineouts and mauls in the second

 

[Kiwiwomble]

...so after my kind of positive post i just saw someone else post this...and i cant disagree too much and am worried again

He has a bloke at 12 who he never wanted at 12.
We have a fullback who was 10 last week who never scores anymore.
A winger who wasn't in the initial squad.
The best hooker in the world (who scores every week) on the bench.
A reserve 9 who was launched out of the squad as yesterdays man and is now back in the squad.
We have scooter back at 6 just like RWC 2019 semi final.
We have Sotutu on the bench who has basically only played against Japan .
Akira has been jettisoned altogether.
We have two midfielders on the bench , both of whom look like they are running in custard.