England vs Argentina - 06/11/22

[HamJan]

Well didn't expect to lose that and think Argentina were just as poor apart from that one score.

Still was always going to happen eventually under Jones shite results like that will happen to turgid teams.

I don't see how Argentina were poor. They didn't have much ball, played to their strengths with a sensible game plan and came away with a deserved win.

 

[ncurd]

I don't see how Argentina were poor. They didn't have much ball, played to their strengths with a sensible game plan and came away with a deserved win.

England vs Argentina - Match Statistics - International Test Match 2022 - 5 Nov, 2022 - ESPN

Get a summary of the England vs Argentina, International Test Match 2022 5 Nov, 2022 rugby match.

www.espn.co.uk

I'm unsure how you look at any of that and say Argentina played well compared to England.

 

[BPM]

The thing is … Eddie is probably looking at those stats and thinks they're good.

Ultimately, we were crap again, only this time we didn't get out of jail so can't mask how bad the performance was by saying 'at least we got the result'.

 

[Geordie]

Our performances have been bad for a long time

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Eh? I'm a fan of Underhill's, but that statement is a proper stretch.

I'm not going to make a big hyperbolic statement, but Jamie George is a bigger miss for me. He's a leader who always plays well and does his job very effectively. LCD is overrated IMO.

Are you really saying you'd rather Coles than Itoje?

I've said similar on here before. Those kind of momentum changing plays are important.

I'd like a look. And a look means a few games, if he's not going to get that, what on earth was the point of yesterday? I'm never going to moan too much about Itoje being in the side but for all his personal merits, I've always felt that he unbalances the back 5 a bit. Also, Itoje, and Curry for that matter, have marquee reputations but if we're being honest it's been a while since they have consistently influenced tests. Not saying they've been bad, just not in line with their lofty reputations.

If we were playing a World Cup QF tomorrow, of course Itoje would be picked, but we're not and I think other options are worth looking at, especially with Kruis gone, Launch out of the picture and Lawes permanently in the back row when uninjured. And if Itoje does go down in a QF, do we want the scrum half syndrome of the cover either inexperienced (Coles, Isiekwe), or not good enough (Ewels).

 

[ncurd]

Our performances have been bad for a long time

Aye we've waiting for one like this on paper we should of run away with ahead on all attacking and defensive stats. Even equal on penalties and better kicking percentage.

Only turnovers conceded do we come out worse.

That's not a match that should be close let alone loosing.

 

[BPM]

I've said similar on here before. Those kind of momentum changing plays are important.

I'd like a look. And a look means a few games, if he's not going to get that, what on earth was the point of yesterday? I'm never going to moan too much about Itoje being in the side but for all his personal merits, I've always felt that he unbalances the back 5 a bit. Also, Itoje, and Curry for that matter, have marquee reputations but if we're being honest it's been a while since they have consistently influenced tests. Not saying they've been bad, just not in line with their lofty reputations.

If we were playing a World Cup QF tomorrow, of course Itoje would be picked, but we're not and I think other options are worth looking at, especially with Kruis gone, Launch out of the picture and Lawes permanently in the back row when uninjured. And if Itoje does go down in a QF, do we want the scrum half syndrome of the cover either inexperienced (Coles, Isiekwe), or not good enough (Ewels).

Apart from the try saving tackle on Scott Williams, I don't recall Underhill making any truly 'momentum changing plays' for England and certainly not in recent times. Again, I like him a lot, but you're creating a narrative that I find hard to credit.

As much as we need to look to the future, I don't see SA resting Etzebeth or NZ resting Retallick (yes I know he's banned) for full blooded test matches against top opposition. If Coles was tearing up trees, maybe but just being pretty decent doesn't really justify dropping one of our best players. I'd have been more comfortable with it if Chessum had been fit.

I do agree that Itoje hasn't been at his most influential for England in recent times though. I disagree a bit on Curry as he started very brightly in Australia before knocking himself senseless.

 

[Which Tyler]

I don't think there's any chance the RFU bin him before the RWC - 2021 Six Nations would've been the time to do it, after a string of terrible performances/a 5th place finish/leaving enough time for a new guy to bed in

You'd hope they've been in contact with whoever it is that they're lining up to replace him after the World Cup, so it'd need either the new guy to be available now, or something willing to risk their coaching reputation on a 10month contract inheriting a really out of sorts side and heading almost immediately into a World Cup

We said the same about Andy Robinson.

I'd say there's a (very) strong argument for following the same game-plan, replace Eddie with an attack oriented coach nearing retirement (AKA Wayne Smith). An advantage of Wayne (if he'd take the role) is that he's available to take over immediately.

The trouble is - can the RFU afford to buy out Eddie's contract?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The trouble is - can the RFU afford to buy out Eddie's contract?

That was another thing I was thinking - if there's a performance based get out clause then surely winning the Aus tour would take that off the table (plus it's probably something more extreme than lose X amount of games, it'll be England dropping out of the top 10 or getting the Wooden Spoon or something like that)

 

[Welsh Exile]

I'd actually bite your hand off for Eddie Jones on a 1 year rolling contract to take us into the WC if it meant we could get rid of Pivac.

 

[Geordie]

Thats the thing Eddie is great at having immediate impact when he starts...but he seems to have issues with a longer duration. Keeping a team performing over a long period. A sprinter not a marathon runner.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Thats the thing Eddie is great at having immediate impact when he starts...but he seems to have issues with a longer duration. Keeping a team performing over a long period. A sprinter not a marathon runner.

To be fair I think most coaches struggle after 4 or 5 years. Things can get stale and players might get bored of hearing the same voice/ideas and want to freshen things up.

I agree, though, which is why I'd definitely take Eddie over Wayne going into the WC. Wouldn't be signing off on no 3-5 year contract though. Goes without saying that I would for Robertson, though.

 

[LIONSxv]

I think we are all in agreement that Jones needs to go. This won't happen until after the RWC. What does absolutely infuriate me is his inability to select on form or even ability. I think Eddie is better when he has a small pool of players where he doesn't have the option to change continually. This worked well for Japan and Aus (who obviously have a bigger pool than Japan but smaller than Eng)
With this in mind what changes would we like to see to this XV?

For starters I'm fed up of locks at flanker. It may work for other nations, but out results would suggest not. Try any of earl, T hill or J Willis at 6
Billy is past it at 8. Tackle techniques have improved greatly meaning brute strength is nothing with either footwork or off loads. He does neither, plenty of alternative options
Ben Young's, should of been binned after the Last RWC
Farrel needs to play at 10 or not at all. He is very poor inside centre
Manu if he stays fit for more than game, move to inside centre and play him alongside someone with pace at 13.

Nowell, love the guy but nowhere near these days. Let's have a look at arundall when fit.

Steward needs to more than catch the odd bomb. The lad is 6 foot 5 and 17 stone, why aren't we at least twice a game isolating smaller wingers against him with a X field kick ? As NZ did with J Barrett

 

[davros]

Think EJ jumped the shark ages ago. When did we truly last play well in a consistent 60 minute block.
The back line looks like the worst thoughts of jack rowell before CW recognised the brilliance of Neil Back. Look at the SH teams - not afraid to pick littleuns if they're good enough but we seem petrified of not picking lumps. Even Johnny May's bulked out too much.
Scotland Van de Mayde(so?!?) deeply overrated. May have the most tackle breaks in URC but at in test matches his pace and lack of real trickery is badly exposed. Now, where's David Duckham, Jason Robinson and Martin Offiah when you need them. Rosalyn Park had a glorious treasure under their noses. ! By the end he could even tackle.
Well done los Pumas. Thoroughly deserved. We were turgid, vapid, not rapid, and error strewn rabble. Farrell cannot play 10 @ 12 it just doesn't work. He's dominating the calls and Smiths obvs petrified of him.
Oh and finally, Maro, please keep your gob shut. You're believing your own hype and your personal form needs to improve immensely.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Thats the thing Eddie is great at having immediate impact when he starts...but he seems to have issues with a longer duration. Keeping a team performing over a long period. A sprinter not a marathon runner.

And the irritating thing is that his track record said exactly that. A few months here, a couple of years there. Given that we didn't win in 19, that AB semi is increasingly looking like the worst thing that could have happened.

If they did before, Arg won't have any fear factor for the first RWC match now.

 

[davros]

Very very good point.

 

[Geordie]

Think EJ jumped the shark ages ago. When did we truly last play well in a consistent 60 minute block.
The back line looks like the worst thoughts of jack rowell before CW recognised the brilliance of Neil Back. Look at the SH teams - not afraid to pick littleuns if they're good enough but we seem petrified of not picking lumps. Even Johnny May's bulked out too much.
Scotland Van de Mayde(so?!?) deeply overrated. May have the most tackle breaks in URC but at in test matches his pace and lack of real trickery is badly exposed. Now, where's David Duckham, Jason Robinson and Martin Offiah when you need them. Rosalyn Park had a glorious treasure under their noses. ! By the end he could even tackle.
Well done los Pumas. Thoroughly deserved. We were turgid, vapid, not rapid, and error strewn rabble. Farrell cannot play 10 @ 12 it just doesn't work. He's dominating the calls and Smiths obvs petrified of him.
Oh and finally, Maro, please keep your gob shut. You're believing your own hype and your personal form needs to improve immensely.

He was scoring a lovely try at Kingston Park on Saturday

 

[davros]

Fair play. But do you think the coaching set up does seem to favour lumps over lithe?

 

[davros]

Fair play. But do you think the coaching set up does seem to favour lumps over lithe?

I mean I'm biased because when I played at school and beyond I was (and am) really small even for a scrum half or winger wher I often ended up which was fine by me because I could put 120% into every run tackle and most biguns got a nasty surprise either being left embarrassed or being knocked over. I'm trying to get going again now for vet games by putting on some weight/ mass and having another go against some of my over 50 contemporaries. Hoping to enjoy myself once more. Rob burrow seemed to do ok before tragedy struck.

 

[Geordie]

At times yes very much so.

I dont get the continued insistance on Manu and Cokasaniga. Both have failed to perform at the prem for any decent continued period for a long time but shoehorned in when ever fit.

I would honestly take a host of our young wingers over Coka...Freeman, Sleightholme, Loader, OHC, Radwan, Murley, Thorley etc etc.