England v New Zealand

[eot345]

So, What do we think Will happen come scrum time in all the AI's?

sadly i dont know that much about the southern hemisphere except that in general they dont concentrate on it quite as much as some of the NH teams(correct me if im wrong) e.g England,France and Italy


id Say englands best possible scrummaging pack is

Marler
thompson
cole
shaw
lawes
haskell
moody
easter

this is in my opinion potentialy one of the best scrummaging packs in the world

however realisticly the england pack will probably be

sheridan
thompson/hartley after 60 mins
cole
lawes
palmer
croft
moody
easter

this is still pretty formidable expecially with the likes of shaw and marler coming off the bench, i have a feeling that england will be equall to or have an advantage over anyone they play in the Ai's.


what are your thoughts

 

[Teh Mite]

Not so sure about Haskell at blindside, but you could be right with regards to o/a scrummaging strength. However Shaw and Haskell instead of Palmer and Croft leaves only one lineout option, therefore a dominant scrum will only have limited uses come the penalty kick for touch results (plus I think they're going to be much more important in this series then ever before compared to the scrum). If Borthwick was any good at scrummaging and carrying, he'd be the ideal choice to partner Lawes but sadly that's not the case.

That 2nd pack looks bang on what I expect for the ABs game, with Hartley and Wally swapping for the remaining matches and (injuries aside) the rest remaining the same as MJ builds consistency up to the WC.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Agreed, that second pack is pretty much spot on
I think parity in the scrums will be the name of the game. If we can win all our own ball, then i'll be happy. I don't expect the pack to have an easy time of it like they did against the Aussie pack over the summer, but i'm not expecting it to get demolished either.

Lineout i'm not so sure, Croft Easter and Palmer are all top notch lineout jumpers, and Palmer does a good job bossing it too, but Thompson and Hartley aren't known for their throwing (Hartley seems to have improved in this aspect recently though) and the 3N teams all looked to have fairly solid lineouts - as above, if we can win all our own ball i'll be a happy bunny.

 

[mohamed_ali12]

Agreed, that second pack is pretty much spot on
I think parity in the scrums will be the name of the game. If we can win all our own ball, then i'll be happy. I don't expect the pack to have an easy time of it like they did against the Aussie pack over the summer, but i'm not expecting it to get demolished either.

Lineout i'm not so sure, Croft Easter and Palmer are all top notch lineout jumpers, and Palmer does a good job bossing it too, but Thompson and Hartley aren't known for their throwing (Hartley seems to have improved in this aspect recently though) and the 3N teams all looked to have fairly solid lineouts - as above, if we can win all our own ball i'll be a happy bunny.

The thing is, Hartley was fine throwing for Northampton last year, but as soon as he put on an England shirt all his confidence just seemed to fade. I assume it's to do with nerves, but i really don't trust him throwing for England at the moment.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'll reserve judgement on him until i've seen him again,
A lot of people were saying charlie hodgson shouldn't have toured over the summer because he was sh*t for England before. But he showed good form for Sale, then good for England. Hopefully Hartley's followed the same routine

 

[eot345]

im sorry but if thompson is a bad lineout thrower how come leeds one of the poorer premiership clubs, statistically have the best line out in the premiership this year.

But coming back to the main point how do you guys think we will measure up to the 4 SH teams we play in the Ai's

 

[gingergenius]

How we measure up is a big mystery. England, thankfully, seem to have found some genuine outstanding talent in certain positions who'll be around for a while and actually picked them (for once) - I'm thinking Cole, Lawes, Croft, Youngs, Ashton & Foden - you could argue that Armitage on form is a great guy to have about too.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of other positions - and crucial ones - where we don't have the same options. There's potential with the likes of Marler, Saull and Waldouck, but for now they haven't been blooded and a lot of positions are filled with guys like Moody and Easter who are fantastic on their day but not world class.

So, England will say 'we can beat the All Blacks' and theoretically, of course, we can, but I really think if we keep it to within 7 points we'll have done well. We should happily beat Samoa, and Australia and South Africa are winnable. On paper both are much better sides but the South Africans look desperate for form and consistency, while we seem to be able to bully victories out of the Australians at times.

EDIT: can anyone explain why every page has that Boris Johnson video?

 

[eot345]

im worried about marler not because i dont think he's good enough, no i think he is going to surpass even dan cole as a prop but because he is only 21 and to play prop against NZ at the age of 21 must be hard no matter how good you are and how much promis you show

 

[donmcdazzle]

From a NZ perspective on the England team:

I respect the English pack, I expect you to have a solid scrum and a handy lineout. I think it'll be pretty even in the set piece. Foden is a good fullback, and you have some speedy wingers. Flood is improving and Wilkinson is someone I've always rated. Youngs I think is a good talent and I hope he can play well and cement his spot at 9, as Care is a bit erratic, he reminds of of the former North Harbour and I think Northampton player Mark Robinson.

Where the team is let down though (and has been for a while) is in the midfied. Having Flutey (a guy who couldn't be trusted as a starter in his proper position of 10 in NZ provincial rugby) as your 1st choice 12 speaks volumes to the lack of talent there. Even Barkley is a converted 10. Hape, who was a decent, not spectacular kiwi league player, is pretty limited and I have no idea what Johnson sees in him at the international level. Tindall can tackle well and can't do anything else really, this was fine when he had Greenwood outside him but there is no similar creative outlet now and his flaws are even more apparent. Tait is very quick but his decision making isn't up to it.

I'd be pretty worried if I was the English coaches as there doesn't seem to be any good young English midfielders coming through (wasn't the south african guy Barritt just called up?). It's fine having good outsides but if there is noone creating space for them then they've got no chance. I was thinking about how many 12/13's who would walk into the England team and it's shocking. I think all these NZ players who aren't starters for the AB's would be automatic selections for England: Toeava, Fruean, SBW, Ranger, Stanley, Kahui. And that's off the top of my head. England can usually beat most sides on their day but I don't think they'll be able to consistently beat the best teams until they get at least one homegrown quality midfielder.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Waldouck is in the squad and I think he'd be great in the squad,
He played well in the limited gametime he got over the summer, and has been doing well at Wasps so far this season.
There are several good English centres in the premiership, but then Hape gets the nod over them, where's the justice?
I think Barritt has English parents or grandparents, because he didn't have to qualify for England through residency (played for Saxons several months after moving to the UK)

Also, I take back what I said about Wallies throwing, i know he's not bad, i just meant he wasn't the best in the world at it (but consistent is all you need really - if he can hit the target that's enough)

 

[Teh Mite]

Centres are a massive headache.

- Hape isn't good enough in the top flight (let alone playing test rugby)
- Tindall can be as good as anyone when on song but his best days are well behind him. Plus he's often shoehorned into the inside channel when the coaches forget Greenwood was only superstitious about wearing 13.
- Noon. lol.
- Hipkiss can't seem to put a run of games together for England
- Tait is flakey and injury prone
- Jon Clarke can sidestep and pass like the best, but doesn't have the out-and-out gas since he broke his ankle
- Twelvetrees is fairly good but will probably never make it
- Armitage, who could be deadly and solve half the problem, will never get a run of games together while Mapusua is at NotNots
- Turner-Hall has been off form for a long time (and is an unknown quantity at Test level)
- Geraghty is a fly half (and nuts to anyone who says otherwise)
- Barkley is as Geraghty without the skills or creativity
- Banahan is rubbish and lazy
- Barritt could do well but is an unknown quantity
- Waldouck is destined to be ignored for all eternity
- Manu Tuilagi has potential but is very young and green (yes, I know he's really Samoan)
- Allen will continue to be ignored for all eternity
- Ollie Smith has blown every chance so far (despite being a try scoring Lion)
- Lowe is a youngster (who could do well)
- Bell never has lived up to his potential

The rest aren't even worth mentioning (or I've completely forgotten about them).

 

[eot345]

From a NZ perspective on the England team:

I respect the English pack, I expect you to have a solid scrum and a handy lineout. I think it'll be pretty even in the set piece. Foden is a good fullback, and you have some speedy wingers. Flood is improving and Wilkinson is someone I've always rated. Youngs I think is a good talent and I hope he can play well and cement his spot at 9, as Care is a bit erratic, he reminds of of the former North Harbour and I think Northampton player Mark Robinson.

Where the team is let down though (and has been for a while) is in the midfied. Having Flutey (a guy who couldn't be trusted as a starter in his proper position of 10 in NZ provincial rugby) as your 1st choice 12 speaks volumes to the lack of talent there. Even Barkley is a converted 10. Hape, who was a decent, not spectacular kiwi league player, is pretty limited and I have no idea what Johnson sees in him at the international level. Tindall can tackle well and can't do anything else really, this was fine when he had Greenwood outside him but there is no similar creative outlet now and his flaws are even more apparent. Tait is very quick but his decision making isn't up to it.

I'd be pretty worried if I was the English coaches as there doesn't seem to be any good young English midfielders coming through (wasn't the south african guy Barritt just called up?). It's fine having good outsides but if there is noone creating space for them then they've got no chance. I was thinking about how many 12/13's who would walk into the England team and it's shocking. I think all these NZ players who aren't starters for the AB's would be automatic selections for England: Toeava, Fruean, SBW, Ranger, Stanley, Kahui. And that's off the top of my head. England can usually beat most sides on their day but I don't think they'll be able to consistently beat the best teams until they get at least one homegrown quality midfielder.

i think we will have the edge at scrum time whilst when it comes to the line outs i think we could also have the edge. apart from that...NZ are better at every single other aspect of rugby

i think alex goode has potential if he can succesfull convert from 15 to 10 but our centres a crap tindall is trying hard but as some one else said someone else should haave taken up the flag years ago. we have loads of young talent coming through 1-9 and in the back 3
but as for 10, 12 and 13 i despair i guess floods 'okay' but he is hardly our start player
as for the centre's ????
id quite like billy 12 t's to have a go at england 10 see how that works.

as i said before i really hope alex goode converts form 15 to 10 well and lives up to our hopes

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think Twelvetrees has massive potential,
Would like to see him in (at least) the Saxons next 6N, and see where he goes from there.

 

[Teh Mite]

Goode will never make it as a 10, he'll be the next in that long list of players hyped up to be the next big thing but never delivers. His other problem being that while he's an excellent fullback (although iffy in defence), he's not in Foden or Armitages league.

 

[Duckdee]

Twelvetrees could be interesting, but I think Matt Smith is better, right now.

 

[eot345]

i think the only thing that stops goode being a world class fallback is his lack of gas however i agree his tackling is not his best aspect either

 

[gingergenius]

Goode is a lovely player, but he needs at least a season or two earning his stripes at 10 before he plays for England there. After Foden and Armitage, he's the 3rd best fullback in England and I wouldn't be disappointed to see him there if we had an injury crisis.

Centres - we really need to develop a partnership to get a good team - keep Tindall around until the world cup and bin him afterwards. Flutey is past it. That leaves Hape, who's decent but I don't think good enough for tests. Dominic Waldouck is the 12 who's been banging on the door for a while and I'd pick him at alongside Tindall from now on.

After the world cup - Tuilagi looks like an outstanding prospect and it would be great to see him around. George Lowe I played against frequently (he was at Cobham) through mini and youth level, and he's comfortably the best player I've ever played against. He's an interesting prospect as well.

My hopes for a post RWC centre pairing would be 12 Waldouck 13 Tuilagi or 12 Tuilagi 13 Armitage maybe throwing Lowe into the mix somewhere along the line.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Has Tuilagi said he wants to play for England over Samoa? (not head alot about the guy, to be honest, just what i read during his Visa troubles)

 

[gingergenius]

well, tuilagi has been at school in england since he was 13, he's played agegroup rugby for England - to me that makes him English and wikipedia says he's declared his intention to play for England. The Visa problems were because he initially entered the country on a holiday visa and stayed here illegally; this has now been corrected.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ah, excellent