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England squad for SA tour

Does anyone know if the squad to play Barbarians comes from this squad, or is it an "England XV" so will be others?
 
Okay so the England team is announced, now the question to the England fans are... do you think this team will be capable of beating the Boks on home ground?

Also, do you think Matt Stevens, Mouritz Botha and Brad Barritt will show the real England Players how to Braai some boerewors?
 
heineken said:
Okay so the England team is announced, now the question to the England fans are... do you think this team will be capable of beating the Boks on home ground?
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In my opinion?
No.
I think it may be similar to the Lions tour: Boks will win the first game, the 2nd will be closer, England will win the third with Boks fielding more untried players.


I may be a bit pessimistic, but I'd rather go in expecting the worst and being surprised by a win than the other way round :lol:
 
13 uncapped players is a big call, how many would make the actual 22 on matchday bar the midweek matches??

I saw Wade during last year's Junior World Champs, that guy is like Jason Robinson was in his prime...

IMO it was a dumb choice to pick Danny Care... especially with our Alcohol being cheap...
 
heineken said:
Okay so the England team is announced, now the question to the England fans are... do you think this team will be capable of beating the Boks on home ground?

Also, do you think Matt Stevens, Mouritz Botha and Brad Barritt will show the real England Players how to Braai some boerewors?
Click to expand...

I have very poor knowledge of the likely SA squad so can't really speak about that side of it. The bunch picked by Lancaster however is one I'm confident in and with one or two alterations, some players who have been injured and others just swapped, I can see this squad doing very well in the future, particularly 2015.

However, I agree with Olyy in that I feel it is a tour too early(or a year too early, if you like), for the number of inexperienced and/or uncapped players to go and win in SA. I think we will go down bravely 2-1. Given a more in-form back 3, a more settled back-row, and a bench without Matt Stevens I would have rated our chances higher

is Attwood injured?if no I'm surprised by his ommission, we need to get him back on the international development line and this would have been a good opportunity to do that
 
It's nice to see another England coach completely overlook Gloucester. (Not bitter at all...) When Ben Morgan pulls on his first Glos shirt, he'll have pulled on his last England one. :p

6 centers with Farrell who can play there too is a bit weird. Would have been better taking an extra scrumhalf/flyhalf so that there won't be players involved in both midweek and weekend games. Also, with Tuilagi almost certain to start the test matches, do we really need 5 players vying for one place?

Also, bring back the Hask cam! :D

heineken said:
Okay so the England team is announced, now the question to the England fans are... do you think this team will be capable of beating the Boks on home ground?
Click to expand...
Absolutely! There are a couple of meh players in that squad, but my impression is that it's a squad which has potential to expand on the results of the six nations. For the most part, we can field the same pack, with the useful additions of Haskell and a few exciting locks, and in the backs it seems Lancaster has half a mind on improving the attacking game, and I really hope the likes of Flood and Wade will be starting. I'd be pretty disappointed if we lost all of the games.

EDIT: my main hope is that Lancaster won't hesitate about tinkering with the squad. I can see him starting as close to the same team that ended the 6N, and that would make sense as a starting point, but there are limitations to the squad that ended the six nations and it would be nice to see a few more faces.
 
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I think our initial sides will be something along the lines of:

 
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Is it good or bad that, front rows aside, those two teams are pretty much neck and neck in ability?
 
Stick Matt Mullan in at 1 for the midweek and I'd say that the front rows would be pretty even as well!
 
To express my opinion on the squad in the simplest terms

The good - I am happy all of these are going

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Otago Highlanders)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (capt, Harlequins)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
George Lowe (Harlequins)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

The ugly - I can accept these players going, but think they have short futures, or are in front of better players, or are the wrong position, or in Waldrom's case just aren't really English enough, or just look like a ridiculous gamble
Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Carl Fearns (Bath Rugby)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Charlie Hodgson (Saracens)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)

The bad - Should absolutely not have gone imo, harsh as I feel saying it about the latter two
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Alex Goode (Saracens)

Finally - the second team that could have/possibly have gone

Miller, JSD, Waldouck, Twelvetrees, May, Burns, Thomas; Wood, Whitehead, Thomas, Garvey, Kruis, Guest, Gibson, Narraway subs; George, Brookes, Attwood, Wallace, K. Dickson, Trinder, Benjamin

Comparing that to what's gone, no complaints about scrum-half, the front-row, 6 (we took every one we had though!), centre except JTH - but I do think we left a better back-three, back-row, second-row and fly-half behind.

So... half-pleased, half-annoyed. That he's not taken a single attempt to try out a lumpy lock or someone who might be a 7 annoys me, as does the rampant Glaws-a-phobia.

edit: The decision to tour SA without a genuinely big and aggressive lock worries the hell out of me.
 
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Peat said:
Finally - the second team that could have/possibly have gone

Miller, JSD, Waldouck, Twelvetrees, May, Burns, Thomas; Wood, Whitehead, Thomas, Garvey, Kruis, Guest, Gibson, Narraway subs; George, Brookes, Attwood, Wallace, K. Dickson, Trinder, Benjamin
Click to expand...
I wonder if this is the side that will line up against Barbarians?
 
TRF_Olyy said:
I wonder if this is the side that will line up against Barbarians?
Click to expand...

Probably not, Lancaster will want to get the guys he'll be working with firing.

Also, the side named has a lot of Gloucester players, and you can't have that.
 
Peat said:
Probably not, Lancaster will want to get the guys he'll be working with firing.

Also, the side named has a lot of Gloucester players, and you can't have that.
Click to expand...
Suppose.
Wasn't the BaaBaas squad in 2011 mostly (completely?) made up of players that didn't tour though?




Edit: In 2010 the team was made up of players who toured, but last year they weren't WC players - however that's the be expected. Will probably the midweek side playing the game this year, then.


psychic duck said:
Brookes has played in 3 matches all season, dumbest move ever for him when Castro, Cole and a new Samoan prop Mulipola look like they will be there for years to come
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Mulipola was brought in due to injuries to numerous players (including Brookes) though.
I get what you mean, however - Can't see him getting a massive amount of time for Tigers, apart from during international periods/the LV= cup.
 
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That's pre-mid week game tours though with a smaller squad going. Will be interesting to see what happens.

And I'd never advocate Brookes going, but I needed a both sided prop for the bench for comparison purposes and couldn't think of anyone else. Although I now realise my false assumption that David Wilson would be going is incorrect, so in he goes instead.
 
England should have played Namibia (which neighbours South Africa) in a mid week match instead of one of the two matches with the "SA Barbarians", it could have been a good opportunity for Namibia to get some matches against at a good level, if not Namibia then maybe a "Africa XV" with Namibia decent players, filled out with some South Africans to make the side more decent

Jacques Burger really wanted it to happen, but unfortunately it has been ignored

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/burger-urges-england-face-namibia-16091570.html?r=RSS
 
A 42 man squad and still, with the possible exception of Fearns, no specialist 7. Is symbolic of the defence based game that England will play in S.A. or is it just there is nobody good enough. I think Saull would have gone if fit and Armitage too if playing in England. Surely Kvesic should have been fast tracked to tour and what happened to Seymour? Any other English 7s about? Is the style of the English domestic game to blame for the shortage in natural open-sides?
 
Fearns is in no way shape or form a specialised 7.
He's an 8 or a 6.
5cotty said:
I think Saull would have gone if fit and Armitage too if playing in England. Surely Kvesic should have been fast tracked to tour and what happened to Seymour? Any other English 7s about? Is the style of the English domestic game to blame for the shortage in natural open-sides?
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Saull isn't good enough, imo. His defence is too poor for international rugby.
Agree on Armitage. Kvesic is in the u20s squad, or at least would be if he wasn't injured (was ruled out yesterday or day before).
Seymour not being chosen is odd as he's been head and shoulders above all other 7s in England this season.
Probably didn't make it because he's an actual 7 and not a 6 or 8.
 
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Jamie Gibson is a very respectable imitator of an openside, if not an actual openside - strong over the ball, shameless in the ruck, very busy and ready to work. He also can play 6 and 8 as well and offers a great line out option. Has been very impressive over the last two seasons.

Luke Wallace is also a fine openside, tough in the tackle, useful at the breakdown, runs good lines. Possibly a season too early, but since we're gambling on that with other players, why not him too?

Olyy, is Fourie injured? In short, there are 7s around. Sam Jones at Wasps plays 7 as much as anything and plays it well, combining it with the size and aggression to play 8 at a domestic level at least. James Scaybrook might have been a short term option if we wanted to try out playing with an orthodox 7.

There are 7s out there. I'll defend two 6.5s all day long, but even I'm very disappointed that we haven't tried to look beyond that as an option - and frankly, it looks more like we'll see 2 6s beyond Robshaw.

And it's still not as daft as our lock selection!
 

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