England Six Nations thread

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I think the biggest thing going for us at the moment is that Lawes/Launchbury is the most monsterously athletic second row going just about anywhere... but where's the grunt? Besides, what good two quick, indefatigable monsters who will blast open any ruck and carry handily if required, if the backline isn't going anywhere?

Laucnhbury makes plenty of good carries around the field in the loose, even if tight carrying isn't his speciality per se. And anyway, I'd say that both Lawes and launchbury have improved their carrying in the tight in the past few years. We can also count on the carrying ability of Billy Vunipola

 

[Maverick1987]

Laucnhbury makes plenty of good carries around the field in the loose, even if tight carrying isn't his speciality per se. And anyway, I'd say that both Lawes and launchbury have improved their carrying in the tight in the past few years. We can also count on the carrying ability of Billy Vunipola

We have plenty of ball carriers in youngs cole marler Hartley billy v .

I think we have an unusual group as in they are all quite good at everything and are very well rounded players, cole launchbury are really good at turning over the ball and nearly everybody is decent at ball carrying if not spectacular .

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Yes exactly - and whats why it irritates me so much when we get stereotyped about being the same old England - we have one of the most 'modern' (for want of a better word!) and diverse packs on the world stage. Our forwards are each a bit of everything.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Lawes has done extremely well to improve his carrying.
Look at where it was just last season... he is a reliable carrier now, as opposed to a complete liability.
But he isn't going to tire an opposition defence out in the same way that someone 10kg heavier than he is will.
I'm hoping that Attwood can bring his carrying to bear from the bench.
He doesn't play from the bench for Bath very often, but when he does his carrying is pretty monstrous - because he knows he doesn't have to conserve his energy (...see his performance and try vs Sarries this season).

 

[Maverick1987]

Lawes has done extremely well to improve his carrying.
Look at where it was just last season... he is a reliable carrier now, as opposed to a complete liability.
But he isn't going to tire an opposition defence out in the same way that someone 10kg heavier than he is will.
I'm hoping that Attwood can bring his carrying to bear from the bench.
He doesn't play from the bench for Bath very often, but when he does his carrying is pretty monstrous - because he knows he doesn't have to conserve his energy (...see his performance and try vs Sarries this season).

You know more about bath players than me but if Atwood comes off the bench and has limited energy supplies he can come on at 55 or 60 minutes and give it hell for leather

Sorry just read your post properly and realised it's exactly the same as mine lol

With Atwood and youngs coming off the bench that should up the intensity and carrying especially with a tiring defense

 

[Peat]

You know, there was an article in 442 a while back on why all the top clubs were targeting South American strikers, and it said that the problem was that European players were being taught too generally, and therefore lacked the specialist instincts of a top striker. And I feel this applies to our pack. Most players do most things handily but in terms of that x factor, those specialist world class skills, we're pretty low. Unless we start counting work class and fitness as a skill, in which case we've got tons. But that's not really the issue.

My issue is that come a scrum or a maul we are very reliant on getting our technique right - and really, the way we've been playing, those things are super important.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'd agree Peat.

Just to clarify - I'm not saying Attwood has fitness issues, because any player will do the same if they come off the bench.
But it's just how it is - he knows that against tired defenders he can make a big difference by running straight into them at full tilt.

 

[Maverick1987]

You know, there was an article in 442 a while back on why all the top clubs were targeting South American strikers, and it said that the problem was that European players were being taught too generally, and therefore lacked the specialist instincts of a top striker. And I feel this applies to our pack. Most players do most things handily but in terms of that x factor, those specialist world class skills, we're pretty low. Unless we start counting work class and fitness as a skill, in which case we've got tons. But that's not really the issue.

My issue is that come a scrum or a maul we are very reliant on getting our technique right - and really, the way we've been playing, those things are super important.

That's not massively different than NZ scrum as a whole they aren't great at scrummaging, mauling is decent but not world class I'm not even sure their probs are individually that great at scrummaging either . But as a group they do a good job and give the supply of quick ball to a beastly set of backs

 

[Maverick1987]

I'd agree Peat.

Just to clarify - I'm not saying Attwood has fitness issues, because any player will do the same if they come off the bench.
But it's just how it is - he knows that against tired defenders he can make a big difference by running straight into them at full tilt.

Isn't he quite quick by all accounts aswell ?

 

[ratsapprentice]

He's not Kitchener, but he's certainly not slow.

 

[Crapspray]

The bench looks like it will have a big impact. At least up front. Youngs, Vunipola, Wilson, Attwood, and Morgan coming on with 25 left would be a good way to break the opposition down.

Add in Care, Ford, and Watson and it really might be a case of winning the game in the last quarter.

 

[Peat]

If we had a beastly set of backs, I mightn't be quite so concerned on this issue. But we don't. We have a backwards set of bollards. Supplying quick ball is not a guarantee of victory with our backs, not that we do so all that often. Playing our pack with our backs is like buying a brand new Ferrari and then attaching a plow to it. Have I made my point clear yet? The strengths of the backline dictate a very conventional tight-orientated game. The strengths of the pack ask for an open game. Someone will be disappointed and at least one unit will be performing a task its not really built for.

p.s. The Kiwi pack does have a few other advantages on us, but this isn't the place really.

 

[Maverick1987]

If we had a beastly set of backs, I mightn't be quite so concerned on this issue. But we don't. We have a backwards set of bollards. Supplying quick ball is not a guarantee of victory with our backs, not that we do so all that often. Playing our pack with our backs is like buying a brand new Ferrari and then attaching a plow to it. Have I made my point clear yet? The strengths of the backline dictate a very conventional tight-orientated game. The strengths of the pack ask for an open game. Someone will be disappointed and at least one unit will be performing a task its not really built for.

p.s. The Kiwi pack does have a few other advantages on us, but this isn't the place really.

Yeh I see what you mean . I think we do have a decent set of backs and I'm hoping in 2 weeks they will have a chance to prove it

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Re. Locks carrying: I swear I must be alone in this but it's never been something I've ever thought essential for a lock. Are there even that many good carrying locks? because it's not just a simple as being big: I don't remember Simon Shaw being the go to man for a big cary, despite being almost 20st. I struggle to think of many teams who carry well to the point of standing out. Padlocking driving lineouts and locking up the scrum is a more important function/reason for having a big second row, imo.

 

[Maverick1987]

Lawes and launchbury are both 18st2 so they aren't exactly small anyway they are half a stone heavier than POC a similar size to Ian Evans and just a few pounds lighter than alun wyn jones

Also just seen that Atwood is 18st2 aswell

These weights I got from the ultimate rugby app so not sure how often they have been updated

Edit: just looked on the RFU site lawes is 17st6 launchbury is 18st1 and attwood is 18st8

 

[ratsapprentice]

Re. Locks carrying: I swear I must be alone in this but it's never been something I've ever thought essential for a lock. Are there even that many good carrying locks? because it's not just a simple as being big: I don't remember Simon Shaw being the go to man for a big cary, despite being almost 20st. I struggle to think of many teams who carry well to the point of standing out. Padlocking driving lineouts and locking up the scrum is a more important function/reason for having a big second row, imo.

Tackling big 20st locks and props is generally very simple... that does not make it easy.
Having to do it repeatedly is very draining.

I can guarantee you that Lawes is not 18st anything - don't trust Wikipedia.
England list him as 17st6lbs which seems about right - and is very light for a lock.

 

[Maverick1987]

Tackling big 20st locks and props is generally very simple... that does not make it easy.
Having to do it repeatedly is very draining.

I can guarantee you that Lawes is not 18st anything - don't trust Wikipedia.
England list him as 17st6lbs which seems about right - and is very light for a lock.

After the performances of lawes and launchbury in the autumn I think they have cemented their places and with attwood and parling aswell we are very well off for experienced locks then obviously we have slater and kruis aswell

 

[j-dawg]

Sorry to jump on this thread but it's the only 6 nations thread going. Is there any way I can watch these games from New Zealand?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Luke Cowan-Dickie started for Exeter in their match against Glasgow...

Really looking forward to seeing him in the premiership finally... would be awesome if him, Sam Hill, Nowell and Slade can all play at the same time!

 

[glawsfan]

Talking of second rows has anyone seen Elliott Stooke this season? The Guy has carried our pack and has been the standout player for us imo. You would never think he was just 20. He was outstanding against Munster and carried the ball more metres than any other forward. Not bad against a good Munster pack if i was England i would already be looking at him for the Saxons. I reckon he was could even be an outsider for the world cup next year if he keeps progressing like he is. He would be a great impact sub similar type of player to Attwood.