England Six Nations Squad 2012

[Peat]

So we'd be looking at Croft at blindside flanker, Dowson at blindside flanker and Robshaw at blindside flanker.
Tidy.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it...

*spot the obvious logical flaw*

 

[TRF_Cymro]

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Thinking more about the "EPS", it's such a terrible system.

Why was Lancaster only allowed to make a certain number of changes? Why couldn't he swap every single player if he wanted to? It makes no sense.
That wouldn't happen in a club - Steve Diamond recognised that Sale were in s**t state last season so cut some of the deadwood and signed people who he wanted.

Maybe Lancaster has got exactly who he wants in every position, but maybe he's got his hands tied by poor selections in previous years that he couldn't get rid of due to the limited number of changes.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Thinking more about the "EPS", it's such a terrible system.

Why was Lancaster only allowed to make a certain number of changes? Why couldn't he swap every single player if he wanted to? It makes no sense.
That wouldn't happen in a club - Steve Diamond recognised that Sale were in s**t state last season so cut some of the deadwood and signed people who he wanted.

Maybe Lancaster has got exactly who he wants in every position, but maybe he's got his hands tied by poor selections in previous years that he couldn't get rid of due to the limited number of changes.

Logic should surely dictate that a new coach should be allowed to select a brand new EPS of his choice and not inherit an EPS squad under a failed regime?

 

[racingmetrofan]

Logic should surely dictate that a new coach should be allowed to select a brand new EPS of his choice and not inherit an EPS squad under a failed regime?

Should have, would have, could have lol. Logic and rfu are not words that always go together.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Exactly my point - A new coach should have a new squad. If he chooses to have the same 30 players as before, fair enough, but don't force him to have at least 20 of them.

 

[racingmetrofan]

So we'd be looking at Croft at blindside flanker, Dowson at blindside flanker and Robshaw at blindside flanker.
Tidy.

TO be fair at least Lancaster is likely playing good players out of position, rather than bad players out of position a la Johnson. Give me Dowson or Robshaw over Easter any day, Likewise Farrell at 13 over Tindall.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I agree with that, however we shouldn't be playing anyone out of position

We have English 7s 8s, why not use them?

I can understand wanting to play Robshaw if at all possible, but he really excels at 6, not at 7 or 8. He can play there, sure, but there are better options out there.
Same goes for Dowson, his best position is 6, not 7 or 8.

It's obviously a shame that we can't accomodate Croft, Dowson and Robshaw all at their preferred position, but we shouldn't force it at the expense of weakening other positions.

 

[j'nuh]

tbf on Lancaster, he hasn't announced any matchday 22s yet, and he hasn't even had a training session with the England players yet, so it's a bit premature to be accusing him of bad selection policy. He has very little in the way of quality 7s to choose from with Wood injured (though he should have called up Seymour imo), and he could still yet play 6. Robshaw 7. Clark 8. Morgan/Narraway 13. Trinder until Wood and Tuilagi are available, which wouldn't be awful against Scotland and Italy. Let's not write him off before his first game!

 

[Saintjay]

As Olyy has said. Why can't Lancaster change the squad as he wants. I can't find any info explaining why that is. Someone most know why?

Plus from previous posts the summer tour looks like it can only be named from the six nations and saxons squad. Hence why we have injured players named. Again why can't he pick fit players now and if people return to fitness later pick them and change things. It All seems a little odd with no real reasoning behind it.

 

[Peat]

Thinking more about the "EPS", it's such a terrible system.

Why was Lancaster only allowed to make a certain number of changes? Why couldn't he swap every single player if he wanted to? It makes no sense.
That wouldn't happen in a club - Steve Diamond recognised that Sale were in s**t state last season so cut some of the deadwood and signed people who he wanted.

Maybe Lancaster has got exactly who he wants in every position, but maybe he's got his hands tied by poor selections in previous years that he couldn't get rid of due to the limited number of changes.

It's not ideal, but it allows the coaches more time with the players while keeping the clubs happy so it ain't all bad. Better to have it than not.

And I'm sorry, but the restrictions offer zero excuse for Lancaster's squad. He's replaced over a third of the squad, which is a very large number. If you can point to any poor selections from previous squads that he's been forced to keep I'm all ears but every player he's kept is either injured and an extra pick, or would be there if picking from scratch anyway in my opinion.

A club is different from a country anyway in that the size of the player pool is much higher and the amount of players up to the standard much lower. Replacing all thirty players would be an exercise in insanity anyway, completely destroying any continuity, removing virtually all of the experience from the team and barring many of our best players for inferior substitutes. Wholesale changes simply are not a good idea 99% of the time at this level.

It is also different in that it is not the final power in the situation, countries need to negotiate for release of their players. Here is my model of a likely conversation between Rob Andrew and PRL over wanting to be able to replace all 30 players at once.

RA: "Hi, we'd like to be able to completely change our squad from tournament, hereby destroying all possibility of stability at the clubs in terms of who will be there and who won't for an international window."
PRL: "Lulzor fck off Andrew."

Honestly - more realism, less hysteria please. Premiership Rugby won't allow England to take as they please. We all know that. The current system is flawed, but not majorly, and frankly doesn't really prevent coaches from doing what the hell they like anyway. You can point to bad selections in the squad but they're all Lancaster's as far as I can see. Example - Olyy's complaining about the proliferation of blindsides. Lancaster introduced 4 new back-rows in Morgan, Robshaw, Clark and Dowson, and has called up Narraway as an injury replacement for the fifth. If Lancaster wanted an openside, he'd sodding well have one. He doesn't.

The system's not broken. Maybe Lancaster's brain is, but the system isn't.

 

[j'nuh]

From what I gather, it's to give clubs an indication of which players are going to go missing later in the year, so that they plan their transfer policy around it. It's no use to the clubs if England coaches are allowed to change it when they please. For example, think of it from a Gloucester perspective: they've got one player in the EPS, but a lot of players who could yet get into the EPS. If in the autumn internationals, the England head coach suddenly wanted to call up May, JSD, Burns, Trinder, Morgan etc., then Gloucester would be shafted.

What I'd like to see is England coaches given the chance to pick a squad of about 50 players from which they can choose the squads for the six nations, autumn internationals etc., as well as another 15 players to round out a 65-man squad for the main squad and the Saxons.

EDIT: Peat got there with a much better explanation than I did. That said, it's admittedly frustrating that it takes injuries to players in order to be able to pick a form team for games later in the year.

 

[gingergenius]

whether or not lancaster had a limited amount of changes for the EPS, he's changed it enough to bring in Clark and Dowson, which in the general scheme of back row selections, is simply wrong.

I'm not hating on either player - Dowson should already have been capped; Clark will probably deserve caps in the future. But picking two extra 6s, one of whom is 30 and the other who hasn't stood out in the Premiership, over other more obvious and balanced options is mindboggling. Maybe he knows something I don't, but I've been dubious about English back row selections for years and rarely has any coach proved me wrong.

In fact, the last time I remember being 100% content with England's back row (discounting the 6N where Wood and Haskell's positions were bizarrely reversed) was when we sent a load of youngsters to NZ in 2008 and we had Haskell, Rees and Narraway. We got ****ed up due to a crap tight 5 and midfield, plus inexperience elsewhere, but the back row for me was a major positive. Before that, having Lipman at 7 was a nice asset.

 

[j'nuh]

Well there are few quality 7s lying around (Seymour was overlooked admittedly) and at the time the squad was selected, there weren't many in-form 8s. (Dowson can play 8 and had a great game against Harlequins.)

Worth considering that this is not only a team for the six nations, but also for the rest of the year. Croft doesn't deserve to be here on form, but it's worth keeping him in the squad with thoughts that he might recover form in time for use later in the year. That considered, Croft, Robshaw, Morgan, Wood have to be there. Clark's there with half-a-mind in the future. Narraway's upturn in form makes him a useful addition at 8, and I hope this makes Dowson there only to provide injury cover.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Kearnan Myall, Matt Hopper, Paul Hodgson and Ed Slater called in to the Saxons ahead of the Wolfhounds game.


I understand Myall, Slater and Hopper getting called up (replacing Attwood, Trinder and Parling, respectively) but why Hodgson?

 

[Peat]

Uhm... Hodgson replacing Goode? Ok? Yeah... oh dear.

edit: Actually its for Karl Dickson. Rupert Harden in for Henry Thomas as well. Fair enough.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just seen that Karl Dixon is injured, so Hodgson is in for him.

Rupert Harden has also been called up in place of injured Henry Thomas.

 

[Daniel Richards]

Just heard Stuart Lancaster is picking a captain game to game so we could have 5 different captains for the six nations ! Odd ! Why not just pick one say Hartley he is going to start every game is he not ?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Who know, he could play like s**t.
Chances are it'll be the same player every match, but better to name it individually than say "X is captain" and then they play like crap.

I also heard that Flood, Tuilagi and Lawes aren't being considered for the Italy game, even if fit, as Lancaster wants them to play at least a game for their clubs before getting them back in to int. rugby.

Better than the old policy of throwing them back in to the England team several weeks before they're fully fit.

 

[Saintjay]

Who know, he could play like s**t.
Chances are it'll be the same player every match, but better to name it individually than say "X is captain" and then they play like crap.

I also heard that Flood, Tuilagi and Lawes aren't being considered for the Italy game, even if fit, as Lancaster wants them to play at least a game for their clubs before getting them back in to int. rugby.

Better than the old policy of throwing them back in to the England team several weeks before they're fully fit.

The Injury things seems like a pretty good idea. It could prove interesting with Wales third up at Twickenham and it looks like they will be throwing the growing injury list straight back into international rugby.