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England Rugby 2020/21 Thread

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Isn't it nice when the major topic of discussion on the England thread is who should be the 3rd-string hooker? These must be halcyon days for English rugby. :cool:
 
Not Eddie Jones said:
Isn't it nice when the major topic of discussion on the England thread is who should be the 3rd-string hooker? These must be halcyon days for English rugby. :cool:
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Well the major topic is still who should be our 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice 9 but that horse has been flogged to death, revived as an undead horse, flogged again with a whip coated in holy water, brought back through time travel and the flogged again with wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff.
 
ragerancher said:
Well the major topic is still who should be our 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice 9 but that horse has been flogged to death, revived as an undead horse, flogged again with a whip coated in holy water, brought back through time travel and the flogged again with wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff.
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We have Ben Youngs. He is immortal. End of discussion.
 
On Barbeary, I'd say it says much more to his rugby ability that Wasps have been willing to accomodate a 6/2 split purely to fit him onto their bench. Is he a perfectly refined hooker? No, but he's also only 20 years old. I'm sure if any of Hartley, George or LCD had been judged on their ability at that age they'd never have gotten caps. He's clearly not in the squad to play, he's there to get experience from the top 2 hookers in the country. Whether his future is at hook or back row, he's a generational talent and should at least get experience in England camps over Dunn (who I like, but is realistically never going to force his way into a 23 over the 2 incumbents).

For the record, Barbeary has had senior game time at hooker for Wasps, on his debut, and scored a try off of a maul that he accurately threw the ball to.
 
English sports fans and hyperbole: name a better duo :D
Heavier than any English hooker in recent memory, squats more than quite a few Prem props at only 20 years old and is also faster than the majority of them. Maybe he won't end up being a generational player but he's undoubtedly a generational athlete.
 
Nah, I mean when he called her the best athlete in human history

Let's let the lad develop and get some more serious game time (preferably in his actual position) before declaring him the best of his generation.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
Nah, I mean when he called her the best athlete in human history

Let's let the lad develop and get some more serious game time (preferably in his actual position) before declaring him the best of his generation.
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Ah, fair enough, don't really listen to Joe Rogan so didn't get the reference, but yes that is a ridiculous claim.

I agree let the lad develop but I think that being involved in England camps without the pressure of being capped should be massively beneficial to him, no?

In terms of calling him a generational talent, I agree that was hyperbolic. But, like I said, I do truly believe that he is a generational athlete. Maintaining the club-set cardiovascular capabilities of a back rower while overtaking the national-set strength requirements of a front rower is an unbelievable achievement at only 20 years old.

I just see absolutely nothing wrong with involving a young player who's shown enough potential to have an extremely good chance of being in the international conversation over a 28-year old who EJ's clearly judged to not be up to standard.
 
TBeastT said:
In terms of calling him a generational talent, I agree that was hyperbolic. But, like I said, I do truly believe that he is a generational athlete. Maintaining the club-set cardiovascular capabilities of a back rower while overtaking the national-set strength requirements of a front rower is an unbelievable achievement at only 20 years old.
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I know where you're coming from TBT and I'm as excited as anyone by Barbeary's potential.

But that's also the mindset that's led us up numerous garden paths before. The ABs may be average right now, but they'll be back soon enough and one of the keys to their success has always been worrying about skills first and physique second.

Yes he appears to be an outstanding athlete. Maybe he truly is or maybe he's one of those who just physically matured really quickly and won't actually get that much better. You see that all the time and next year opponents will have analysed his game in the way they haven't up to now.

Unless or until he shows set piece ability in the Prem he shouldn't be near the squad. Daft thing is that it will be obvious in a very small number of games whether he currently has that ability or not. Wasps attitude so far suggests they must have reservations.

If he can hold his end up in the set piece then bring him in. If you're good enough you're old enough.
 
I'm uncomfortable with too much hype too early. There are plenty of examples of heavily hyped players never really blossoming. The one that springs to mind is Ehize Ehizode. About 3yrs ago he was being tipped as 'better than Maro Itoje at age grade', he joined Bristol from Wasps and then dropped to National 1 with Chinnor before signing for recently signing for Hartpury. Fine, but hardly challenging Maro.

Barbeary might be a bit different though ... even if he doesn't get any better and doesn't have the set piece game to be a top class hooker, the early evidence suggests that he's got a good future as an abrasive, ball carrying 6 good enough to be on the England radar. Personally, I think he is a special talent who could have a similar meteoric rise to Itoje, but I don't think he should be in the England mix now or any time particularly soon.
 
I think it's worth pointing out (again), he wasn't called up tomplay matches - whichnis way too early. He's there as an apprentice, even if there aren't any other official apprentices at the moment, because the clubs are playing.
As a prospect, he's very exciting, but no-one, in any position should be getting capped until they've had 1 and a bit seasons of first class rugby under their belt.

At 20, he may have the physicality now, but over-play and over-strain him, and he'll be lucky to still be playing the game in a decade's time. Ease him in over a few years, and each year of easing will amount to 2 years of play at the end of his career, let alone a much better chance of of being broken once he's finished.

I don't know how good his hooker basics are (I'm a terrible judge of that even formlkayers I've watched for years), but getting him game time away from the front row is a really good way of testing his mindset and the rest of his bodies without fpjist grinding him into an early retirement.

FTR, I've ranted on this theme regularly before. To the point that I wrote a diatribe about it going back a decade or so - with increased sizes and strengths, it's probably even more important now.

How much 1st class rugby should young props/hookers play?

I put this post in another thread (on another board) a few days ago (actually, 3-4 years ago now, but I wasn't here then, and I've just found it again to link elsewhere in reference to Corbs' latest knee op); which got largely ignored as the thread turned into the match thread for the All...
www.therugbyforum.com
 
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