England Rugby 2018/19 Thread

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Taking those one by one:

Hooker:
Throwing is definitely key I'll give you that, but also a line out can go to pot for any number of reasons

No. 8:
In reality how often is ability to control the ball at the back a genuine game changer? I can't think of any match where that has been a key factor (unlike the lineout, or front row battle)

9 / 10:
I agree on these two, for me these are the actual key positions

Fullback:
Equally if one of the wingers can't catch you can just kick to him, it's not unique to FB, there are three players patrolling that backfield

(For what it's worth I think you underplay the significance of a dominant scrum in your counter example too.)

My mind remains unchanged I'm afraid! I think if you "reverse engineer" the question, ie start from the assumption that the "spine" is significant and work backwards, you can come up with justifications for the concept. However if you start with the question "which positions (if any) are categorically more important, across all leagues and teams, than the others?" then I don't believe you can build a compelling case for any except the half backs.

Yeah, I mostly agree with you. Like I said, I don't agree with the concept but that was my take on it. Although I disagree that strong cases can only be made for the half backs; if your hooker can't throw you truly are f***ed.

 

[Reiser99]

Though in the context of what Bracken said, everyone agrees 9 is a key position and it's one of the biggest weaknesses of the side. Youngs has completely lost the form that made him so good when he first came on the scene. There are occasional glimpses, but he just seems slow and ponderous now. Care is just erratic and his best performances are often off the bench against tiring opposition. After that nobody has genuinely been given a chance so that Jones was forced to turn to Wigglesworth because he is experienced enough that he shouldn't make any awful mistakes. Spencer and Robson should have far more experience even if just to give Youngs and Care a kick up the arse.

Question though...is it too late with 6N's and summer tests to try someone new if you know the incumbents aren't going to get any better regardless. Surely give someone a chance to step up as you can always fall back on Youngs, Care and Wigs.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

At this point I'd be pretty happy with Wigs at 9. He won't set the world alight but he won't f*** up which is more than can be said for Youngs and Care.

 

[Reiser99]

At this point I'd be pretty happy with Wigs at 9. He won't set the world alight but he won't f*** up which is more than can be said for Youngs and Care.

So would I, but, and this is not disrespect to Wigglesworth, it says so much about how England have developed their 9's and the opportunities given to younger players that he is who we are turning to in a world cup year.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I don't mean to disparage your point OH, which is broadly a good one, it's just this "spine of the team" concept which I don't get - and you happened to be the one to bring it up on a slow December work day when I had time to formulate a response!

It's been quite funny watching a little Goode dig take on a life of its own.

But actually I like the way Toby put it. A team is the sum of its component parts, but some positions are more consistently exposed or influential than others. It's for that reason Jones backed Hartley and Brown in 2 of those key positions seemingly long after their sell by dates. Reliability, experience, the basics, call it what you will.

Back to 9 and Jones can't say that every last TRF poster and our dogs haven't told him to look at options beyond Youngs and Care. He really should pay more attention.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

At this point I'd be pretty happy with Wigs at 9. He won't set the world alight but he won't f*** up which is more than can be said for Youngs and Care.

He's not going to keep defences guessing either.

Your logic's impeccable, but we know what those 3 can do. Time to look at others in the 6N.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Question though...is it too late with 6N's and summer tests to try someone new if you know the incumbents aren't going to get any better regardless. Surely give someone a chance to step up as you can always fall back on Youngs, Care and Wigs.

Ideally we wouldn't be in this position but I believe those with the talent tend to shine through relatively quickly, especially if the incumbent is off form. Spencer has looked like he can do everything Care and Youngs can and just need to see if he has the temperament to make the correct decisions when under pressure in an international. You look at some of the young players who became first team players recently, nearly all of them essentially became serious contenders or even completely displaced the incumbent in 5 games or less.

 

[higgik]

The good thing about the progress being made is that it is still on an upward curve. The 2003 squad peaked a year too early and were just holding on, as seen by the following year.

NZ have been famous for this up to the last 2 RWC.
As an Englishman, I hope this is also true of the Irish, although I think the Welsh are beginning to make serious progress.

 

[Scotty]

I've heard this "spine of the team" idea before and to be honest I don't really get the significance.

Aside from all nominally being "in the middle" (which is basically irrelevant in the ebb and flow of a rugby game) what is it that actually tangibly connects these positions? In what specific ways a) are they more important than other positions; and b) do they benefit from familiarity? What connects (for example) the hooker and fullback (or even the hooker and no. 8) more closely than other positions? I just don't get it.

I don't mean to disparage your point OH, which is broadly a good one, it's just this "spine of the team" concept which I don't get - and you happened to be the one to bring it up on a slow December work day when I had time to formulate a response!

Spine of the team i dont think it means they meed familiarity, my point earlier was 9 and 10 bennefit from familiarity but the whole spine doesn't need it.

Spine of the team is generally the leaders in the team and specialist positions.
2 huge part of all set piece
8 often a leader, strong ball carrier(picamoles, stander ect.)
9 the link between backs and forwards needs to be vocal and look whats on
10 same as 9 really
15 at the back needs to be strong under high balls strong in a 1 on 1 tackle and positionally in the right place.

The pther positions are important ofcourse but i see these as the leadership and control within a team.

 

[Juggler]

Spine of the steam belongs to the tight head prop. If that is in order, everything else will fall into place

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Bill Beaumont getting knighted, what a lad

 

[Nudger]

Fast approaching world cup year just hoping our lads stay fit with our best matchday squad we stand a chance

 

[Scotty]

Fast approaching world cup year just hoping our lads stay fit with our best matchday squad we stand a chance

Well staying fit is half the battle, the other half is working out our best 15/23. Players really stuck their hand up in AIs but what is the best team, its bad this close that i couldn't 100% tell you the team and be debaiting who should be in the wider squad incase they do get injured or impact.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

JJ and Watson likely to miss the six nations after delays to their comebacks

Considering Dalys form is continuing to nose dive it's looking like a real shitty idea to let Ireland poach Haley.

Step up Mike Brown!

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Why are our centres still a problem in a World Cup year! In most positions we have options but Jones seems to have brought no real options at centre or SH.

I was really impressed with omgow he turned England round but I feel like he's wasted so much time on players when options were needed. Is Slade really our World Cup 13 if JJ hasn't played?

Is 90 year old Wigglesworth our best 9 these days?

The 6 nations should hopefully cement our starting 15 but I don't hold much hope of common sense. We will probably see a lock playing 6, Robshaw back at 7 and brown back at 15 with Teo at 12....utterly disappointing.

 

[NickBD]

Well judging by Daly at 15 and lack of options I'd welcome back Brown. Unpopular decision but he is a safe choice.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Unpopular decision but he is a safe choice.

Don't think it's a particularly unpopular one after this autumn,
I know I want him starting there

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Yup, Brown is by far our best option at 15. One of the first names on the sheet for me now.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

6N's backline of
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Barritt
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Brown

 

[BPM]

Yup, Brown is by far our best option at 15. One of the first names on the sheet for me now.

100% agree. The experiment of Daly at 15 was worth trying but it's not even looked like working and Brown's form is good enough to justify his selection. Daly's isn't, but if he's going to be picked, I'd prefer to see him on the wing.

As for the centres, it's a mess. I can't believe Te'o justifies being selected unless he can string a few games together. Slade hasn't performed well enough to keep his place IMO and has barely played for Chiefs since the AIs anyway. Tuilagi is looking good, but can we really rely on him being fit? Assuming he is, I'd have Ford back at 10 with Farrell at 12 and Tuilagi at 13.