England Post-WC discussion

[Rich Taff]

It's a shame that ATM Borthwick and Jones are leaving them.

Didn't know that. Disappointing if so, but hopefully they'll reconsider when the team returns after the WC. No doubt it will be a bit better publicised return than send off for them.

(Ugh, just noticed the 'spellchecker' on here is americanised!)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I can't believe anyone would drop Farrell right now.
If you're dropping a flyhalf it's Ford - he CANNOT handle pressure, and has shown it on multiple occasions.
The kids young, he'll come good, but Cipriani is better and has a good 5+ years in him yet.

That said, I wouldn't drop Ford. But Farrell would be my 10 going forwards.
It's a shame we've got quite a few 10s around because Slade deserves to be in the squad, and I feel as a utility guy he's not getting the game time he deserves but Cipriani deserves a shot at the 10 shirt, he's done enough for his club and has done more than enough in his (short) England appearances.

 

[ncurd]

I can't believe anyone would drop Farrell right now.
If you're dropping a flyhalf it's Ford - he CANNOT handle pressure, and has shown it on multiple occasions.
The kids young, he'll come good, but Cipriani is better and has a good 5+ years in him yet.

That said, I wouldn't drop Ford. But Farrell would be my 10 going forwards.
It's a shame we've got quite a few 10s around because Slade deserves to be in the squad, and I feel as a utility guy he's not getting the game time he deserves but Cipriani deserves a shot at the 10 shirt, he's done enough for his club and has done more than enough in his (short) England appearances.

Honestly Olyy you talk sense but I don't want to hear it right now....

Really I look back at the last 8 months and whilst being a Bath fan who loves Ford, Cips probably make the most sense for the England 10 shirtI just don't want to admit it and it hurts too much....

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I can't believe anyone would drop Farrell right now.
If you're dropping a flyhalf it's Ford - he CANNOT handle pressure, and has shown it on multiple occasions.
The kids young, he'll come good, but Cipriani is better and has a good 5+ years in him yet.

That said, I wouldn't drop Ford. But Farrell would be my 10 going forwards.
It's a shame we've got quite a few 10s around because Slade deserves to be in the squad, and I feel as a utility guy he's not getting the game time he deserves but Cipriani deserves a shot at the 10 shirt, he's done enough for his club and has done more than enough in his (short) England appearances.

Agree all round.

Ford future not now IMO.

When has he won a big game for Bath when the pressure was really on?

 

[Wendigo7]

Blaming ford for that was hilarious. Never mind though.

It was multiple things, but most of all the breakdown and backrow are very very poor. Until that gets fixed, with the new coach probably, things won't get better. Whoever our backrow ends up being.

As for the midfield. Youngs was good. The rest can show themselves the door. We never had any control. The moment Wales set piece tidied up, we looked awful with the 10 12 and 13 going wide. Barritt was to blame for the try. Burgess offers more definitely but was too slow. Farrell kicked well, nothing else.

that being said where do we go? Burns plays well, dropped. Cipriani and ford play well, dropped. There's only so long we can keep supporting wood/robshaw/Farrell. They do their limited roles well granted, but it's also a major problem in that it severely inhibits the way we play and their decision making as a group has been suspect for ages.

 

[Peat]

For me it's too early to say. I know the great comeback feels pretty bloody unlikely right now but it could happen, we could end up keeping him and we could be happy to do so.

That said... whoever is coach post-World Cup, I would like to see them arrive with a philosophy and, results pending, I'd like to see them keep to it. Lancaster has flip-flopped all over the place looking for a formula and is still doing so at the World Cup. We may mock Gatball, but it's got Wales further than Lancaster's searching has got him. The philosophy needs a bit of flexibility, it needs to suit the players we're producing... but something concrete.

Not sure what bits of England I'd seek to build on though.

 

[Tony Manx]

For me it's too early to say. I know the great comeback feels pretty bloody unlikely right now but it could happen, we could end up keeping him and we could be happy to do so.

That said... whoever is coach post-World Cup, I would like to see them arrive with a philosophy and, results pending, I'd like to see them keep to it. Lancaster has flip-flopped all over the place looking for a formula and is still doing so at the World Cup. We may mock Gatball, but it's got Wales further than Lancaster's searching has got him. The philosophy needs a bit of flexibility, it needs to suit the players we're producing... but something concrete.

Not sure what bits of England I'd seek to build on though.

I would agree with most of what has been said here so far and especially this......apart from being happy to keep him even if we do qualify!! Getting anywhere near the final with this team and leadership is definitely a step far too far !!

England need to work on the scrum, line out, breakdown, consistency, defense and attack..... Have I missed anything ?

 

[ncurd]

Chucking your Captain under the bus in post game conference is extremely poor though. I can't see Lancaster coming back from this. We've spent the last 4 years trying to select a backline and we're still nowhere on knowing what the lineup is. Hell we thought 13 was nailed on and Lancaster isn't sure on that.

What does he do against Aus? I'm not sure any selection combined with a loss .

Really really need Fiji to do us a favour.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Lancaster is more the problem. A coach should pick a balanced pack j clouding some X factor players, carriers, mobile players.

A backline that can do the basics and some superstars in there as well.

That would of been easy for him to do 4 years ago and then settle on a squad.

What he did was select a load of average players and stick with them.

Rubbish coach, scrap all our coaches and get rid of slow slow robshaw

 

[Wendigo7]

The coach should select based on the future talents coming through.

Slight, ball playing midfielders with pace and positional awareness, so play wide and expansive. Have the conviction to pick these players.

4 years of, let's get the same team that beat NZ in 2012 and it hasn't worked.

 

[Wendigo7]

Stepping away from the world cup for a second, selection for the midfield going forward needs to be got right. You look at the players coming through:

Ford, Slade, Hill, Joseph, Daly, Eastmond, Devoto. There are probably more but those are just off the top of my head.

Looking at that, we simply cannot rely on defence to win games any more. There is alot of emphasis on it and rightly so, defence will win you games, if you have complete control but suck the life out of teams. Our forwards just cannot do that and are a penalty magnet at the minute. Rumours still abound Tuilagi is moving abroad so you can't use that and I get the impression Barritt will be chucked under the bus for that.

Going forward if we pick defence as the building blocks for England it simply won't work with the type of dainty centre we're producing, or half back. You can Robson and Farrell to the list. We have to attack basically.

 

[Tony Manx]

Stepping away from the world cup for a second, selection for the midfield going forward needs to be got right. You look at the players coming through:

Ford, Slade, Hill, Joseph, Daly, Eastmond, Devoto. There are probably more but those are just off the top of my head.

Looking at that, we simply cannot rely on defence to win games any more. There is alot of emphasis on it and rightly so, defence will win you games, if you have complete control but suck the life out of teams. Our forwards just cannot do that and are a penalty magnet at the minute. Rumours still abound Tuilagi is moving abroad so you can't use that and I get the impression Barritt will be chucked under the bus for that.

Going forward if we pick defence as the building blocks for England it simply won't work with the type of dainty centre we're producing, or half back. You can Robson and Farrell to the list. We have to attack basically.

Defense wins games but you have to be able to attack to score the points! It is not one thing OR the other. It is a balance of both!

 

[j'nuh]

Most important challenges for the next cycle:

Forwards:

• Contesting the breakdown is not optional. Kvesic should be a pivotal player the next few years and we need to find backup to him. Launchbury to start nearly always.
• Forwards need to take the ball at pace. We also need additional carriers in the pack who can make the tight gains, not just forwards who think they are backs.
• A high work rate second row. I want them hitting rucks, winning our ball back all game.
• Brookes needs more game time and we need to start looking at replacing Wilson too.

Backs:

• After a lot of tinkering, Lancaster found a class back three. Wouldn't change a thing here to begin with, although I'd like to see the wings get better at contesting high balls. We may need to replace Brown in the next 4 years, not an easy task.
• 10-12-13, whoever it is, needs to find the balance between attacking and defensive skill. In the first couple of years, I'd like us to bring through a 10-12-13 that fits this description and has absolutely bags of potential.
• Ford needs a Halfpenny-like transformation if he's to stay in the 10 mix. I disagreed initially, but I now see the point that he's too frail for an international 10. If he can work on his aerial game, I would like to see him move to 15 and be the successor to Brown.
• We need a sweeper.
• We need another 9 in the mix.

 

[Tony Manx]

Most important challenges for the next cycle:

Forwards:

• Contesting the breakdown is not optional. Kvesic should be a pivotal player the next few years and we need to find backup to him. Launchbury to start nearly always.
• Forwards need to take the ball at pace. We also need additional carriers in the pack who can make the tight gains, not just forwards who think they are backs.
• A high work rate second row. I want them hitting rucks, winning our ball back all game.
• Brookes needs more game time and we need to start looking at replacing Wilson too.

Backs:

• After a lot of tinkering, Lancaster found a class back three. Wouldn't change a thing here to begin with, although I'd like to see the wings get better at contesting high balls. We may need to replace Brown in the next 4 years, not an easy task.
• 10-12-13, whoever it is, needs to find the balance between attacking and defensive skill. In the first couple of years, I'd like us to bring through a 10-12-13 that fits this description and has absolutely bags of potential.
• Ford needs a Halfpenny-like transformation if he's to stay in the 10 mix. I disagreed initially, but I now see the point that he's too frail for an international 10. If he can work on his aerial game, I would like to see him move to 15 and be the successor to Brown.
• We need a sweeper.
• We need another 9 in the mix.

Ford is a either an international 10 or a club player!!

Cips was not picked because it was perceived that he could not tackle which he has been doing brilliantly for Sale. Indeed, because it had so improved he was brought on by Lancaster at 15 and he is miles ahead of Ford who is like a door mat!

I cannot see someone of Ford's stature at 15 worrying any attacker in a one on one situation!!

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Ford also don't have the speed.

 

[Peat]

I would agree with most of what has been said here so far and especially this......apart from being happy to keep him even if we do qualify!! Getting anywhere near the final with this team and leadership is definitely a step far too far !!

England need to work on the scrum, line out, breakdown, consistency, defense and attack..... Have I missed anything ?

What if they did somehow make that step? It would basically be a miracle, but if a miracle happens, I think people's thoughts could well change.

And I think it would have been easier to say "Rugby".


I really can't agree with sending Ford to full-back. What makes Ford the talent he is are his fly-half skills. What makes him a problem is his size, and small's not a good look for a full-back, and his temperament possibly, ditto. I don't agree with everyone saying Farrell to be number one (and what a turn around we have there), I think it's an open question at the moment - but if we were to suddenly decide he should play somewhere else, I'd try moving him to scrum-half. Won't happen though. It would be far more prudent to talk about how you hide a fly-half in defence, it can be done better than England are doing.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It would be far more prudent to talk about how you hide a fly-half in defence, it can be done better than England are doing.

Why bother, though?
Cipriani is already better, and Slade is not far off and doesn't have the glaring weakness to his game.
Ford is not so indispensable that we should change our entire defensive system to accommodate him. Send him away and tell him to get better(/bigger?), simple as.

 

[j'nuh]

Ford's talents will be well used at fullback:

• Kicking game (obv). Passing skills useful for the long passes around the back three.
• It gives him the freedom to join the attacking line literally anywhere. He can work off the 10 in a double-distributor model. He can join outside the 13 and run the outside line. He can replace the 10 or 12. He can use his footwork out on the wing. In attack, the 15 is the most flexible player in the team, and I can't see how this wouldn't play to Ford's strengths.
• His feet are good, so he can get past defenders.
• Physicality/speed can be worked on. Similar criticisms (in regards to speed) were initially made of Brown for example. You can hide a less physical player at 15 more so than you can at 10 IMO.

It's just the aerial game that may be the main problem. I don't see Ford worrying anyone in the air.

That being said, I'm ok with this:

Why bother, though?
Cipriani is already better, and Slade is not far off and doesn't have the glaring weakness to his game.
Ford is not so indispensable that we should change our entire defensive system to accommodate him. Send him away and tell him to get better(/bigger?), simple as.

 

[Peat]

Why bother, though?
Cipriani is already better, and Slade is not far off and doesn't have the glaring weakness to his game.
Ford is not so indispensable that we should change our entire defensive system to accommodate him. Send him away and tell him to get better(/bigger?), simple as.

Cipriani may not have the goalkicking game to nail down the shirt. I'm as vocal as anyone on Slade's potential, but we have not seen fulfilment.

Ford isn't indispensable, but he still remains a really strong option, and frankly any international team should be capable of changing the way they defend when needed.

 

[ratsapprentice]

• Contesting the breakdown is not optional. Kvesic should be a pivotal player the next few years and we need to find backup to him. Launchbury to start nearly always.

This is just as much a coaching issue as it is a personnel issue IMO - I've said it before, but I'll repeat myself - which of our coaches is qualified to teach breakdown technique?
I can't see that any of them are. Kvesic, Itoje, Clifford... we have the personnel coming through - we need someone with specialist expertise to work with them.

• Forwards need to take the ball at pace. We also need additional carriers in the pack who can make the tight gains, not just forwards who think they are backs.
• A high work rate second row. I want them hitting rucks, winning our ball back all game.

Again both a coaching and personnel issue - we have the players to do both of these things, yet we don't pick them. When we do pick them they seem to flitter between doing the things they were picked for and subsequently being criticised for not doing the things that the people they replaced do, or standing still before going into contact.

• After a lot of tinkering, Lancaster found a class back three. Wouldn't change a thing here to begin with, although I'd like to see the wings get better at contesting high balls. We may need to replace Brown in the next 4 years, not an easy task.
• We need another 9 in the mix.

One or both of Watson and Nowell look like the obvious replacements for Brown - Nowell more of a like for like (albeit more well rounded, i.e. he actually looks to pass) and Watson for more of a strike runner.
This also has the added advantage of opening up a wing spot for one of the many (!) potential wing options we have now, and those likely to come through.

Robson, Cook, maybe even Simpson... we have options here too.
I'd put Robson in straight away as 2nd choice in the 6N - that guy has all the tools to be a quality international SH.