England Post-WC discussion

[j'nuh]

Am I missing something? Everyone who invested is an adult. They should know that there's no such thing as "free money" or the "sure-fire investment"; investing always carries risk, particularly in the stock market. If they invested knowing the risk, then it's unlucky but no one's fault and this is not newsworthy. If they invested not knowing the risk, then they have themselves to blame for not having the maturity to seek financial advice. Cipriani knew what's up.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Am I missing something? Everyone who invested is an adult. They should know that there's no such thing as "free money" or the "sure-fire investment"; investing always carries risk, particularly in the stock market. If they invested knowing the risk, then it's unlucky but no one's fault and this is not newsworthy. If they invested not knowing the risk, then they have themselves to blame for not having the maturity to seek financial advice. Cipriani knew what's up.

This. Stupid from the kit coach but did these guys do no research at all? Everyone knows you don't hurl loads of money blindly at stocks and expect it to turn out well...

 

[Peat]

Time and place though innit.

Taking a share tip from a friendly colleague = fine.

Having the extra stress of whether you'll be seeing the better part of six figures ag on your mind while preparing for the greatest sporting moment and test of your entire lives = not fine.

Buying a house, planning a marriage, making large investments - those are things players shouldn't be trying to do while preparing for a World Cup. Big stress-inducing things that can be delayed shouldn't be part of the best possible build-up, right? Lancaster doesn't have a duty of care towards his players' money, but he does have a duty to ensure they're at their best as rugby players and I don't really see this as conducive.

It shouldn't have been happening and I reckon Tennison knew that, because if everyone would be cool with it, why not invite the coaches to invest too? Maybe I'm reading too much into the wording of the article, but it seems like only players were informed. Whatever his flaws, I can't see Lancaster ok'ing this if informed.

Raises an interesting point about whether Wood, Robshaw or anyone else informed Lancaster and if not, why not.

 

[McTallshort]

His senior players should have told him if they respected him enough.

Told him what?

Boss some of the players are speculating on the stock market with their own money, think you need to stop it?

It's none of anyone's business unless your one the players whose money was investested

 

[Raggs]

4 years in the ITM cup vs a touch over 2 in the Premiership...
Captained his country at 'A' grade...

I've just got zero time for people who turn their backs on their countries in search of more money. He renewed his Wasps contract last year so is probably on close to/over £100k a year. For playing rugby.
Forgive me if my heart doesn't bleed for him.

I just hope that over the course of this next season (i.e. in the countdown to Hughes being eligible) our new coach finds/settles on his ideal no.8/back up 8/reserve 8 and we can tell Hughes to swivel.

4 years at Auckland, and all of 19 ITM caps, he's on over 50 for Wasps already.

Yeah, what an arsehole, trying to earn money for his family in a very short career that could end at any moment... I don't know what your circumstances are Olyy, but I can tell you without question that I'd be thinking of that £200k a year, just for being picked in the EPS (ignoring then the 15k a game, sponsorship, and then win bonuses on top). He is probably well paid, but the rest of his family? His parents and siblings? He's in a very short career, only got a school sponsorship at 17, so probably doesn't have the best of educations. He's doing what's right for him and his family, and that's far more important than some blown up sense of nationalistic pride.

If the rules were 6 years for qualification by residency, I'd not complain in the slightest, but they're not, and I'm not going to have a go at a guy trying to do the right thing for him and his, and harming nobody in the process.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

4 years at Auckland, and all of 19 ITM caps, he's on over 50 for Wasps already.

Yeah, what an arsehole, trying to earn money for his family in a very short career that could end at any moment... I don't know what your circumstances are Olyy, but I can tell you without question that I'd be thinking of that £200k a year, just for being picked in the EPS (ignoring then the 15k a game, sponsorship, and then win bonuses on top). He is probably well paid, but the rest of his family? His parents and siblings? He's in a very short career, only got a school sponsorship at 17, so probably doesn't have the best of educations. He's doing what's right for him and his family, and that's far more important than some blown up sense of nationalistic pride.

If the rules were 6 years for qualification by residency, I'd not complain in the slightest, but they're not, and I'm not going to have a go at a guy trying to do the right thing for him and his, and harming nobody in the process.

So your saying he is a merc?

Considering you have had a pop at players using the grandparents rule I don't quite get why you think 3 year residency is any better TBH.

 

[Geordie]

But if he's earning the big bucks already then why not play for Fiji?

Anyway, get Billy V and Ben Morgan back in form and we have two quality 8's. But they cant be asked to do all the carrying on their own again. We need a balanced pack that has a few heavy duty carriers.

 

[TheOvalBall]

Surely RFU need to make a decision asap regarding Stuart Lancaster ? The 6 Nations is not that far away. Guy Noves is already at work in his new position.

 

[Geordie]

Apparently the results are to be revealed to the RFU board on the 17th.

So given there's always leaks...we should have the info soon.

I cant see him staying to be honest.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

So your saying he is a merc?

Considering you have had a pop at players using the grandparents rule I don't quite get why you think 3 year residency is any better TBH.

Ennit,
International rugby shouldn't be about money, it should be about the pride of representing your country.

We're going to end up with a situation like the Fijian France winger who looks like he really couldn't give a **** about playing for France.

 

[Peat]

But if he's earning the big bucks already then why not play for Fiji?

Anyway, get Billy V and Ben Morgan back in form and we have two quality 8's. But they cant be asked to do all the carrying on their own again. We need a balanced pack that has a few heavy duty carriers.

He's earning nuffink compared to what he'd earn as an English international. Plus he gets to play at the highest level of the game in a credible team.

I don't really support his actions but they're incredibly logical and entirely in his best interests.

 

[Raggs]

International rugby shouldn't be about the money, but unfortunately money is a very real part of it, and if you're telling me you'd stick your nose up at 200k+ a year, I'm not sure I'd believe you. Unless you're earning multiple millions, 200k is a big amount of cash, and it's likely going to be more than that, and it's very unlikely he's earning more than that. He's got 10-15 years in the sport (if he's lucky), I have no problem with him taking the cash.

Grandparent rule is a tricky one, I believe it should be in place, but when a mid twenties player steps off a plane, straight into a national side, because he found out his granny was English, then I don't see why that's somehow better than a guy who's at least played in the country for 3 years first.

I've repeatedly stated I'd like to see residency done on a 3 years before 18, 6 years after 18, basis. Think it would be far fairer. However, I'm not going to go around hoping that England Rugby tell a man trying to support his family to "go swivel".

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I hold a degree of sympathy to players who use the Eligibility to actually play International rugby, You could be a fine player but never get a cap due to a countries depth. Don't agree with it but sympathies with it.

I hold no sympathy to a player who outright turned his nose up on his own country. Plenty of Fijian rugby players earn money and play for Fiji Goneva is on 200K + a year.

I feel the Grandparent rule its tricky as the influence of a grandparent can big, Think it should be 3 years and a grandparent or 5 years. Don't like the idea of 3 years before 18 as if a player moves before that age it is generally the parents decision.

Then again any top coach will use the player he wants regardless of parents or birth etc.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

International rugby shouldn't be about the money, but unfortunately money is a very real part of it, and if you're telling me you'd stick your nose up at 200k+ a year, I'm not sure I'd believe you.

No, but I'd expect everyone to call me a turncoat merc ****.

 

[Raggs]

I hold a degree of sympathy to players who use the Eligibility to actually play International rugby, You could be a fine player but never get a cap due to a countries depth. Don't agree with it but sympathies with it.

I hold no sympathy to a player who outright turned his nose up on his own country. Plenty of Fijian rugby players earn money and play for Fiji Goneva is on 200K + a year.

I feel the Grandparent rule its tricky as the influence of a grandparent can big, Think it should be 3 years and a grandparent or 5 years. Don't like the idea of 3 years before 18 as if a player moves before that age it is generally the parents decision.

Then again any top coach will use the player he wants regardless of parents or birth etc.

But it's direction of success. Goneva ended up on big money for Tigers due to his exposure through playing for Fiji. Hughes has that exposure before committing to an international side (the Kiwis wanted him to play 7s for them, but he turned them down too, I'd bet that wasn't bad cash).

Should he be playing for Fiji, yep. But whilst there's cash on offer to represent a country at international level, and the disparity between Fiji and England is so great, I find it hard to fathom anyone who seems to hold such an unpleasant dislike for him doing so.

He's a mercenary, welcome to everyone who's left the club who first brought them through the academy and into the seniors, OK, international level is another step down that path, but be upset with World Rugby for not sorting out the massive problem there is here, not with the guy trying to make the best life for himself and his family.

 

[Geordie]

On actual ability...would you pick Hughes over a fully fit and inform Vunipola or Morgan?

 

[Raggs]

Is Hughes allowed to be in form as well?

I feel he's more similar to Morgan than BV, but he offers a better lineout option than either, and is good at the breakdown (similar to BV). I don't know if I'd start him over either, but I'd certainly have him in camp to get a closer look, and perhaps consider placing him at 6, with BV at 8 (perhaps swap that on attacking and defensive scrums).

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Personally I'd rather stick with BV/Morgan/Ewers/Beaumont than go in for mercenaries BUT having said that I think at the present time Nathan Hughes is better than Morgan and BV and I can't comment on the other two.

If only for the simple reason that he never struggles to get into the game - because there's enough elements to his game that no game - be it fast paced or attritional - really excludes him.
He's got an awareness of what's happenign which goes beyond the physical contact. Sure Billy V can offload but Hughes at elast appears to be lookign to do so more consistently.
His running lines are epic and his breakdown work very strong.
His biggest problem has been discipline and errors but he's improved this in the last two years.
Problem with Morgan is he can go missing when it's not his type of game.
Problem with Billy is how England have used him

 

[Josht36]

We clearly need more carriers in our pack.

I propose:

6) Billy V, 7) Hughes, 8) Morgan.

It would definitely be fun to watch.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

We clearly need more carriers in our pack.

I propose:

6) Billy V, 7) Hughes, 8) Morgan.

It would definitely be fun to watch.

ha, perhaps..
The received wisdom that your 6 7 and 8 should always be the first to the breakdown would go out the window, though! Cole, Hartley and Marler would be quicker than that lot!