England Post-WC discussion

[TRF_Olyy]

Please Beaumont is only playing due to his daddy.

Genuine, you're a Tigers fan so you're probably not that far from me so I will find you and fight you.

Beaumont didn't make England u20s so quit the Sale academy to focus on his studies. At Durham uni he captained the side to several unbeaten years, while occasionally moonlighting for Falcons' seconds.
In his holidays he played for Fylde.
He captained England students in an unbeaten season.
After uni he went back to Fylde and Sale offered him a senior contract and he took it.
The rest is history.

Beaumont, despite his name, worked harder for his contract than 90% of players in the Prem, who came through various systems/academies.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Ironically I live in sale country now.

And I was only messing with you.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ironically I live in sale country now.

Even better.
I know the terrain.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Cheshire or Salford?

I was worried that Beaumont would turn into a Gaskell Mark 2 when he first hit the scene at sale but he looks very much a 8 and not a weird 8,6 lock thing Gaskell was.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

ALL OF IT
(My family is from Lytham St Annes, where Fylde is)

 

[ratsapprentice]

I was worried that Beaumont would turn into a Gaskell Mark 2 when he first hit the scene at sale but he looks very much a 8 and not a weird 8,6 lock thing Gaskell was.

Gaskell is more Adams-Apple than he is human.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Gaskell is more Adams-Apple than he is human.

Hey now.
He's at least 50/50 adams apple/"madchester" haircut.



I echo your worries, though - young players, especially Sale young players, tend to have a relatively poor 2nd season, however Beaumont has looked excellent so far. I know this is like his 3rd/4th actual season, but the first two he probably averaged 50ish mins as he was injured so much.
Quiet game vs Sarries, playing out of position at lock, but then moved back to 8 and got a MOTM, try scoring, game vs Worcester.

 

[TheSaffycen]

There are many many options for us to choose from, my mind changes from week to week who we should pick.
We can go for a team with a powerful scrum, lineout generals or just running prowess. At the moment (though will probably change again)
1.Mullan 2.George 3.Wilson 4.Kitchener/Berry 5.Attwood 6.Croft 7.Fraser 8.Clifford
16.LCD 17.Mako 18.Thomas 19.Kitchener/TheBerryMan 20.Ewers
On the bench you have serious impact and players with the ability to play different styles. Ewers can come on in the need of a defensive effort or when we have to carry/attack more. Front row will hopefully hold its own at scrum time and carrying like 3 8s in the open.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Attwood was seriously impressive yesterday - he and Roko looked the goods.

Thomas too, come to think of it. I've not historically been his biggest cheerleader, but he could be in with a shout at some point.

The Chiefs' youngsters looked the dog's too... LCD and Ewers are seriously, seriously talented.

Yeah Roko looked really good...and it just reminded me how poorly he was handled with England. Build him up, give him one game, and then sit him down again. He didn't do anything wrong.

Agree about Thomas..I wouldn't say I'm massively bothered between Thomas or Brookes as to who plays but I'd be tempted to give Thomas a run.
I'm very optimistic about Jake Cooper-Woolley, who I think is the stronger scrummager of the three and whose carrying can be really destructive.

I quite like the idea (highly unrealistic) of a six nations which we write off in the name of player develpment in key positions. We know what Dan Cole can do (not much, at the moment). We need to start to get a grasp of who we can genuinely rely on moving forward in key positions, of which Tight-head is a main one.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yeah Roko looked really good...and it just reminded me how poorly he was handled with England. Build him up, give him one game, and then sit him down again. He didn't do anything wrong.

Agree about Thomas..I wouldn't say I'm massively bothered between Thomas or Brookes as to who plays but I'd be tempted to give Thomas a run.
I'm very optimistic about Jake Cooper-Woolley, who I think is the stronger scrummager of the three and whose carrying can be really destructive.

I quite like the idea (highly unrealistic) of a six nations which we write off in the name of player develpment in key positions. We know what Dan Cole can do (not much, at the moment). We need to start to get a grasp of who we can genuinely rely on moving forward in key positions, of which Tight-head is a main one.

Yeah but if Lancaster keeps his job, he can't afford to write off a 6N in the name of development as that was the line he touted for 4 years but then didn't deliver when it mattered. I think the development sides we could put out would knock the spots off the main team but he can't hide behind that excuse if it goes wrong. A new coach would not have that problem.

 

[Crapspray]

Yeah but if Lancaster keeps his job, he can't afford to write off a 6N in the name of development as that was the line he touted for 4 years but then didn't deliver when it mattered. I think the development sides we could put out would knock the spots off the main team but he can't hide behind that excuse if it goes wrong. A new coach would not have that problem.

I'd say the opposite is true. If the whitewash panel manage to keep him as coach, he has about six months to convince the rest of the world that he has some idea of what he's going to do to improve. Fans are crying out for radicalism in most positions so would welcome it with open arms if he finally got round to it.

As you say, the players left out of the current team would probably thrash it*, so if he puts a mess out in the Six Nations he will likely fail. Win-win. Either he becomes radical and clears out the deadwood or he just gets sacked six months later than we expected/wanted.

Looking at that panel, that seems likely where we'll end up: lower-half of the table in the Six Nations and a tour from hell in Australia. New coach gets the autumn to repair. Lancaster's selection against Uruguay suggests he hasn't a clue of how to select a complete back line and no real idea of who are (to everyone else possessed of sight and sense) his most talented players.



*Indeed, though it was rumour, the Daily Wail reported that Farrell-Burgess-Barritt was humped in training by the players left out. They're usually close to the ground with leaks; and it wouldn't surprise me that Ford and Slade would run rings round that abomination.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Yeah but if Lancaster keeps his job, he can't afford to write off a 6N in the name of development as that was the line he touted for 4 years but then didn't deliver when it mattered. I think the development sides we could put out would knock the spots off the main team but he can't hide behind that excuse if it goes wrong. A new coach would not have that problem.

Well you make a good point. The way I'm imagining it, Lancaster isn't a coach and we have a new team in place who need to get to grips with the player pool.
... If Lancaster is coach, he has to try and win the thing.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I hope that, as part of the restructure/review, they look at why the Saxons keep massively underperforming.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I hope that, as part of the restructure/review, they look at why the Saxons keep massively underperforming.

They need look no further than Jon Callard!

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Daily Mirror that well respected rugby mag is having a field day on Lancaster.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/england-squad-member-says-world-6672778

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/stuart-lancaster-stunned-england-approach-6605300

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-chiefs-involved-review-6699719

Although it seems well known that Lancaster didn't let the players out or enjoy themselves which IMO is needed esp at top flight, doesn't sound like he trusted them.

 

[Raggs]

Roko got injured in his first game for England, took a few weeks off, came back having elected not to have surgery, and looked poor for the rest of the season, just sneaking into the RWC 50 due to Strettle (bad call on Lancasters part) and he rediscovered form/sidestep in the AP semis/finals. He was rightly not selected again up until then, would have had him ahead of Watson in the WC though.

Gaskell is beginning to look pretty useful at lock for Wasps, great in the lineout and throwing himself about, some sharp offloads too.

Jake Cooper Woolley has got to be in place for picking up a few more saxons caps at least, but with so many promising youngsters at tighthead, and Cole far from over the hill, opportunity needs to be grabbed, either by an amazing run of form, or likely injury, since Brookes and perhaps Thomas are ahead at the moment (and I'd not argue either of them).

 

[HowieLO6]

Roko got injured in his first game for England, took a few weeks off, came back having elected not to have surgery, and looked poor for the rest of the season, just sneaking into the RWC 50 due to Strettle (bad call on Lancasters part) and he rediscovered form/sidestep in the AP semis/finals. He was rightly not selected again up until then, would have had him ahead of Watson in the WC though.

Really? Why on earth would you do that?

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Daily Mirror that well respected rugby mag is having a field day on Lancaster.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/england-squad-member-says-world-6672778

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/stuart-lancaster-stunned-england-approach-6605300

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-chiefs-involved-review-6699719

Although it seems well known that Lancaster didn't let the players out or enjoy themselves which IMO is needed esp at top flight, doesn't sound like he trusted them.

To be fair, whichever player said that about Robshaw not even being the best in his position needs to be taken out and shot.. There's no room for that sort of thinking in a squad, especially from a senior player, regardless of whether the comment about Robshaw is true or not.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

To be fair, whichever player said that about Robshaw not even being the best in his position needs to be taken out and shot.. There's no room for that sort of thinking in a squad, especially from a senior player, regardless of whether the comment about Robshaw is true or not.

Place your bets on who said all that. My guess is Wood.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

To be fair, whichever player said that about Robshaw not even being the best in his position needs to be taken out and shot.. There's no room for that sort of thinking in a squad, especially from a senior player, regardless of whether the comment about Robshaw is true or not.

Yes, you're right, but....

The more serious part is that what is being alleged is very believable. And if a significant number of squad members had a similar lack of faith in both captain and coach, then the outcome of our campaign is even less of a shock than it seems. We'll learn a lot more as players retire and books are written.

Obviously I know more than that "senior player" as I don't think top level playing experience is essential, but top level coaching experience certainly is. SL had neither so how did anyone expect him to command the respect of the troops? I suspect he didn't lose the dressing room as much as never having it.