England Post-WC discussion

[Hulkster]

All under 25, eh? By the time he reaches that age the chosen one should have 40+ caps under his belt.

NZ have a pretty good open side, yet his 23 y.o understudy already has 29 caps to his name. Kvesic, who is also 23 and generally regarded as easily our best proper 7 has 2 from a summer tour. Discuss!

It's just another symptom of the underlying 'safety first' disease which prevails throughout English rugby.

There are I'm sure exceptions that people can point to, but we are rarely willing to take the gamble of throwing in a young and exciting player at an early stage. We are more likely to dwell on thr negatives and youth and inexperience as opposed to the positives.

It's the same mentality that sees us focus first and foremost on defence in selection. Flair players are viewed with distrust, we focus on their (percieved) defensive weakness rather than their attacking strength.

We worry greatly about any hint of defensive weakness in players like Wade, Ford or Eastmond. But we don't seem to mind attacking shortcomings in players like Farrell or Barritt. Caution, and therefore defence, is king.

This mentality pervades through everything; waiting too long to blood exciting new talent, negative selection, distrust of flair, even down to not having any outside backs on the bench and kicking it away too often out of fear of being pinged or turned oven.

Even Lancaster's appointment owed a lot to him being viewed as a solid character and safe pair of hands.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

It's just another symptom of the underlying 'safety first' disease which prevails throughout English rugby.

There are I'm sure exceptions that people can point to, but we are rarely willing to take the gamble of throwing in a young and exciting player at an early stage. We are more likely to dwell on thr negatives and youth and inexperience as opposed to the positives.

It's the same mentality that sees us focus first and foremost on defence in selection. Flair players are viewed with distrust, we focus on their (percieved) defensive weakness rather than their attacking strength.

We worry greatly about any hint of defensive weakness in players like Wade, Ford or Eastmond. But we don't seem to mind attacking shortcomings in players like Farrell or Barritt. Caution, and therefore defence, is king.

This mentality pervades through everything; waiting too long to blood exciting new talent, negative selection, distrust of flair, even down to not having any outside backs on the bench and kicking it away too often out of fear of being pinged or turned oven.

Even Lancaster's appointment owed a lot to him being viewed as a solid character and safe pair of hands.

Agreed. You have to be slightly careful with young players, but drip feeding them into the squad, introducing them gradually from the bench etc has to be good. Aim has to be ensuring that they are seasoned internationals on reaching their peak physical years.

And with all the cash the RFU has you'd like to think they could conjure up some decent Saxons fixtures against the likes of Georgia, Japan, Canada etc. Great for both player development and spreading the word - a shadow autumn series maybe? Whatever happened to the Churchill Cup?

 

[lynx54321]

1. Marler
2. George
3. Wilson
4. Attwood
5. Launchbury
6. Robshaw (c)
7. Kvesic
8. Vunipola
9.
10. Ford
11. May
12. Slade
13. Tuilagi
14. Nowell
15. Watson

I'm not much fussed on the scrum half options and you could easily sub in Kitchener, Lawes, Farrell and a couple others into their positions and not lose anything. There's a strong argument for Hartley but that depends on your view of his indiscretions. Done.

 

[Wimero]

We can all come up with our various options on selection but frankly I don't reckon there going to make a whole lot of difference in the short term.Lets face it New Zealand could put out there 3rd team and still give us a good whuppin'.

 

[Mattybuck]

1. Marler
2. George
3. Wilson
4. Attwood
5. Launchbury
6. Robshaw (c)
7. Kvesic
8. Vunipola
9.
10. Ford
11. May
12. Slade
13. Tuilagi
14. Nowell
15. Watson

I'm not much fussed on the scrum half options and you could easily sub in Kitchener, Lawes, Farrell and a couple others into their positions and not lose anything. There's a strong argument for Hartley but that depends on your view of his indiscretions. Done.

No JJ, bit harsh as he has been out best attacking back. Right now he is better than Tuilagi, has a better all round game.

Tuilagi good for impact late on, but unless he drastically improved he is now 2nd choice.

 

[Hulkster]

1. Vunipola
2. George
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Ewers
7. Kvesic
8. Clifford
9. Care
10. Cipriani
11. May
12. Slade
13. Joseph
14. Wade
15. Watson

 

[Maverick1987]

1. Vunipola
2. George
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Ewers
7. Kvesic
8. Clifford
9. Care
10. Cipriani
11. May
12. Slade
13. Joseph
14. Wade
15. Watson

This team is a bit drastic if you ask me lol

We don't need that many new players . We need to improve at the breakdown and pick players who are fit and on form

 

[Hulkster]

This team is a bit drastic if you ask me lol

I agree but that's intentional!

Now is the time to trust the crop of exciting young players coming through.

It's young and inexperienced but to be honest I'd take it to beat the side that started against Wales right now, and the potential to improve further is HUGE.

When you think about it it's maybe not as drastic as it seems. We all know Itoje is coming, so let's not wait two years. Saracens are playing him in the second row so I put him there. Ewers is already the best 6 and Kvesic the best 7. Clifford is a bit of a wild card but I want him to get a chance before Hughes qualifies.

George is the future at hooker so again, just pick him, he's already better than the other two who went to the world cup. Vunipola his teammate alongside him in the scrum.

I think Slade and Joseph would be most people's choice in midfield. I went for Cipriani becuase right now feel he offers to most all round package.

In the back three I just really want to see Wade given a proper chance. If he doesn't take it so be it, but we are ignoring a player who offers something completely unique without giving him a chance.

 

[Guardo Bosque]

No surprise that the players with the most to gain are the ones who are publicly declaring their support for Lancaster; it only serves to reinforce my opinion that there is a raft of dead wood which needs to be omitted from any future selections:

Robshaw
Wood
Haskell
Wigglesworth
Barritt
Goode
Easter
Parling
Webber

Starting XV to face Scotland

1. Vunipola
2. George
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Kitchener
6. Ewers
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan
9. Simpson
10. Ford
11. May
12. Slade
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Brown

16. Youngs
17. Brookes
18. Auterac
19. Itoje
20. B. Vunipola
21. Care
22. Nowell
23. Daly

I'm not convinced that Vunipola should be the long term starter, but in the short term his inclusion would help George acclimatise.

Ewers and Kvesic deserve a run of games to see if they can replicate their domestic form onto the international stage.

Itoje on the bench provides cover across a variety of positions and eases him into contention for a starting spot either at blindside or amongst the second row.
I'd like to see Kitchener get a chance; excellent in the lineout; decent scrummaging power (to play behind the tighthead) and regularly steals possession from the opposition.

I've been really impressed with Auterac; I could never understand why Ford Snr kept selecting James ahead of him last season. Given the opportunity, I think he could be a real threat from off the bench.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

No surprise that the players with the most to gain are the ones who are publicly declaring their support for Lancaster; it only serves to reinforce my opinion that there is a raft of dead wood which needs to be omitted from any future selections:

Robshaw
Wood
Haskell
Wigglesworth
Barritt
Goode
Easter
Parling
Webber

Starting XV to face Scotland

1. Vunipola
2. George
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Kitchener
6. Ewers
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan
9. Simpson
10. Ford
11. May
12. Slade
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Brown

16. Youngs
17. Brookes
18. Auterac
19. Itoje
20. B. Vunipola
21. Care
22. Nowell
23. Daly

I'm not convinced that Vunipola should be the long term starter, but in the short term his inclusion would help George acclimatise.

Ewers and Kvesic deserve a run of games to see if they can replicate their domestic form onto the international stage.

Itoje on the bench provides cover across a variety of positions and eases him into contention for a starting spot either at blindside or amongst the second row.
I'd like to see Kitchener get a chance; excellent in the lineout; decent scrummaging power (to play behind the tighthead) and regularly steals possession from the opposition.

I've been really impressed with Auterac; I could never understand why Ford Snr kept selecting James ahead of him last season. Given the opportunity, I think he could be a real threat from off the bench.

I like that team. I haven't really seen Kitchener playing so can't comment but it looks exciting. As a Bath fan, welcome to our hadbanging about James/Auterac. I remember having mini bets with myself about James coming off and immediately the scrum improving, he rarely failed in that regard. Not to mention he looks like he took a wrong turn someone in the tree of evolution. To be fair to Easter, he has been good but is simply old. If he was 10 years younger, I'd want him in the side based on how he has performed. Webber is just pants in every aspect. Can't scrum, can't do his darts and his work around the park isn't anything to write home about. He has got the "master of none" bit nailed down but hasn't yet worked out the "jack of all trades" bit.

Only change, I'd have Watson either starting at 15 or on the wing with Roko in the subs. Roko could the exactly the winger we want. When on form, he is amazing and I'd hate to see him miss more with England.

 

[Mattybuck]

I agree with the above. It may seem a demotion for Watson but I'd probably bench him and bring in Roko, his game is developing fast. Watson then to cover wing and full back as impact player. Replace Brown long term.

Like that team, like Kitchener I been surprised he has not been given a chance...

Though thinking of the coaching staff... I'm not really surprised!

 

[Guardo Bosque]

I did contemplate starting Watson at 15 because he is the natural successor for the role, however, with a relatively inexperienced side, I felt it best to retain some semblance of cohesion for the upcoming 6N - that and the fact that Brown was one of our best performers at the WC, albeit, I don't think his style is conducive with getting the best out of our back line.

Like both of you, I do like the idea of opening up another wing for the likes of Rokoduguni, Lewington or Wade to grasp an opportunity. With regards to the latter, there has been many a time when I've wanted us to throw caution to the wind and just unleash him upon the opposition to cause havoc, those thoughts are often reigned in, however, when I see the defensive display he put in against 'Quins last weekend.

 

[j'nuh]

If it's a new coach coming in, perhaps cohesion from the last squad isn't all that necessary. The back three will probably play in a completely different way to under Lancaster/Farrell.

I'd maybe keep Brown, but I think we need to start giving Watson some time there, partly for the future and partly so that we have decent back-up to Brown. Starting Watson on the wing and moving him to fullback 60 minutes into the game, and starting Watson at fullback against Italy, might be a good start. And if we start seeing better performances from Watson than Brown, making Watson the starting fullback come the Summer might be an idea. It would also give us a chance to trial new 14 options, as we definitely need back-up there.

But I think it depends a lot on what Bath do. If they don't give him any time at fullback, as I can see them starting Priestland there, then it might not be a good option.

 

[Sweats]

I think its important to understand that whilst we all seem to agree that new blood is needed in the England set-up, it can be very damaging to bring raft of young players in together and risk slowing their development through lack of experience alongside them to learn from, and also if we go on a run of loss's and the press do what they do. Its a risk we dont need to take. Bring a few of the promising young stars who are ready into the match day squad now, include the others in the wider squad so they can train with the team at a minimum.

For me the team i would like to see in the 6N -

1. Vunipola
2. George
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Ewers
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Slade
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Brown

Some much needed power added to the pack and an exciting backline. For me Robshaw would stay as Captain for now whilst we identify and blood his sucessor. Transistion not panic.

 

[Mattybuck]

We have a head start on the backs as most that have performed well are young and still time to develop them individually and as a team.

It's the forwards that we need to see young blood. Faster more skill full with better core skills.

We seem to have forgotten that hookers need to hook and throw, licks need to jump and push and so on...

 

[Mumbles119]

I think its important to understand that whilst we all seem to agree that new blood is needed in the England set-up, it can be very damaging to bring raft of young players in together and risk slowing their development through lack of experience alongside them to learn from, and also if we go on a run of loss's and the press do what they do. Its a risk we dont need to take. Bring a few of the promising young stars who are ready into the match day squad now, include the others in the wider squad so they can train with the team at a minimum.

For me the team i would like to see in the 6N -

1. Vunipola
2. George
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Ewers
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Slade
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Brown

Some much needed power added to the pack and an exciting backline. For me Robshaw would stay as Captain for now whilst we identify and blood his sucessor. Transistion not panic.

Would be happy with Robshaw staying at 6, but one of the priority issues that must be fixed quickly for England, was a lack of break down operators. I.e. the need for a Kvesic/Fraser type at 7. Even if they wore the number 6 and were the break down operator that would be fine too.

 

[Mattybuck]

I like Robshaw, gives 100% every game, but I think it's time to move on.

Certainly for a while. If he starts ripping up trees for Quins then he should be considered. We have other 6's that should be considered and need looking at.

 

[Patchey]

Much as I am a big Robshaw fan, I agree that he needs to lose the captaincy and fight for a place again.

Back in 2011 he was one of the best flankers in the Prem and had the leadership skills as well. He deserved the place in the team on merit and was always going to be a leader, even if Wood hadn't been crocked.

Now...it is much less clear as to where he stands in the back row pecking order on merit alone and frankly I don't think any team who go out in the way we did can keep the cam skipper.

 

[Guardo Bosque]

I think we are all in agreement that Robshaw is not the best openside option available. Most of us would argue that he isn't the best blindside option, either. So if there is an argument for his retention, then what is that argument based on? If it is leadership, then we find ourselves epitomising a 'in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King' scenario.

 

[Maverick1987]

I think we are all in agreement that Robshaw is not the best openside option available. Most of us would argue that he isn't the best blindside option, either. So if there is an argument for his retention, then what is that argument based on? If it is leadership, then we find ourselves epitomising a 'in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King' scenario.

I can't think of anyone who has proven they can move Robshaw if he was playing at 6 . Ewers and Itoje would be the only 2 imo