England Post-WC discussion

[Peat]

I'm liking what I hear in that second article Rats, until it starts talking about the potential winners, at which point I don't.

 

[nickdnz]

Sorry if it's off topic, but I have seen Farrell mentioned as a possible 12 a few times now.

Do people believe he contains the running game to be effective there? I can see the benefit of having a second distributor/kicker at 12 - but I can't help but feel it would result in shuffling the ball on, and limiting the option of the 10. I know he was used there in U20s - but it would seem like you'd just be undermining the ability of your 10, as you'd have to think you'd just be taking away an running option. Surely Slade would be a much more logical selection - as he does have a threatening running game.

Or am I missing something important?

 

[chippieolamus]

Slade is badly injured, leg break iirc. Our selection at 12 at the moment is frankly terrible, and its more of a case of 'best of a bad bunch' as a short term solution till Manu or Slade are match fit.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Or am I missing something important?

We have a real dearth of top, top quality 12's (Slade aside).

There are guys who could do pretty well potentially, but would be somewhat of a gamble.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

We actually have no 12s. Manu and slade are not 12s and have not really played there.

They both are seen by some people on here as potential England 12s both there clubs disagree.

We genuinely have no 12s in England that are international quality and none coming through who look any more than average.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

In the past the journalists have described teams that have been leaked as "probable" squads, not "possible" squads.

Even so, Roko has shown himself to be one of the best wingers in the country. He had 1 average game for England (where the entire team was average), had a dip in form after an injury and now is pretty much back to the form he had before. What serious weakness does the guy have? Tall, fast, great step, great in the air, powerful, good tackler (kept Savea quiet) and no attitude issues. I don't know why he has been overlooked for so long, 1 cap in all that time is ridiculous. To put Ashton ahead of Roko is laughable, stick Roko on the right wing for Sarries and he'd outperform Ashton easily.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I agree, Roko would be there or thereabouts the starting XV for me, and Ashton would be so far down the pecking order that he might as well be deceased.

 

[nickdnz]

Ahh, didn't realize Slade was injured. But I'd still be inclined to put one of the potential 12's in there, than put in Farrell who clearly isn't a 12. I'd still be more inclined to go with Eastmond despite being considered too small. What about Sam Hill? How about any player with an upside at 12, rather than one who will certainly be limited?

Not a different note (sorry if this is off topic again) people are talking about a shortage of options in the centres. I can't help but feel the AP really hasn't helped itself out with that. Look at the number of foreign players they have there: Daniel Bowden (now), Ian Whitten, Byron McGuigan, Michele Campagnaro, James Hook, Winston Stanley, Jamie Roberts, Asaeli Tikoirotuma, Cieran Hearn, Eoin Griffin, Wynand Olivier, Alex Grove, Ravai Fataiki, Duncan Taylor, Marcelo Bosch, James Downey, Ben Jacobs, Alapati Leiua, Anatelia Tuilagi, Gonzalo Tiesi, Juan Pablo Socino, George Pisi, Pat Howard, Johnny Leota, Sam Tuitupou, Jean de Villiers, Christian Loamanu, Seremia Bai, Matt Toomua.

Now that is from looking at several wikipedia pages I grant you - so some may have become eligible, some may not be being used as a centre (on the flip side there are probably plenty of players listed as outside backs that are being used at centre). But surely this has got to be halting the development of a bunch of up and coming English 12's. It's not like I look at that list and see a bunch of world class 12s.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Or am I missing something important?

As other's have said: Lack of other options.
I'd consider him at 12 until Tuilagi and Slade are fit and we can test them at 12, and I've never liked Farrell at 12.
We really don't have any rounded 12s in the country at the moment, or at least not ones that are ready to be international starters.

Not a different note (sorry if this is off topic again) people are talking about a shortage of options in the centres. I can't help but feel the AP really hasn't helped itself out with that. Look at the number of foreign players they have there: Daniel Bowden (now), Ian Whitten, Byron McGuigan, Michele Campagnaro, James Hook, Winston Stanley, Jamie Roberts, Asaeli Tikoirotuma, Cieran Hearn, Eoin Griffin, Wynand Olivier, Alex Grove, Ravai Fataiki, Duncan Taylor, Marcelo Bosch, James Downey, Ben Jacobs, Alapati Leiua, Anatelia Tuilagi, Gonzalo Tiesi, Juan Pablo Socino, George Pisi, Pat Howard, Johnny Leota, Sam Tuitupou, Jean de Villiers, Christian Loamanu, Seremia Bai, Matt Toomua.

It looks a long list but spread it over 12 sides and it's not terrible - there are very few players being blocked by foreigners (Stephenson at Saints the only I can think of off the top of my head and even then 41 games by the age of 21 isn't too bad). Several of those aren't used as centres, as well. Hearn and Tikorituma are wingers, Whitten sees a lot of time on the wing, Hook plays at 10 a fair bit. Toomua/Bowden aren't here for another 8months,
NH clubs need bigger squads than Super Rugby because of the length of the season/amount of games played and also the loss of players to internationals.

 

[Peat]

We actually have no 12s. Manu and slade are not 12s and have not really played there.

They both are seen by some people on here as potential England 12s both there clubs disagree.

We genuinely have no 12s in England that are international quality and none coming through who look any more than average.

Thinking they're better for the club in a different position =/= thinking they couldn't play 12 for England tbf.

Also, I'd say there's a few prospects who could make it big. Williams and Devoto (for all my fears there) both spring to mind.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I continue to be astounded at the amount of belief in Devoto. (unless you are talking about him at some point in the future, rather than the next 12 months)

 

[Peat]

Now that is from looking at several wikipedia pages I grant you - so some may have become eligible, some may not be being used as a centre (on the flip side there are probably plenty of players listed as outside backs that are being used at centre). But surely this has got to be halting the development of a bunch of up and coming English 12's. It's not like I look at that list and see a bunch of world class 12s.

A lot of those are 13s or squad players.

I don't feel like we're short of EQP 12s starting. Eastmond, Burrell, Hill, Twelvetrees all start when fit; Matt Smith's current first choice at Leicester (I think, maybe just in temporary absence of Tuilagi). Quins had EQP 12s up until Roberts arriving this season and shat they all were. Oh jeeze, forgot about Barritt.

But yeah. There's enough EQP 12s around. They're just all not good enough. Whether the young ones are getting the chances... most are getting at least a chance, some get a lot of chance. Jonny Williams is 19 and getting plenty of time for LI.

Don't think the foreigners are the issue here.

 

[dullonien]

Also, I'd say there's a few prospects who could make it big. Williams and Devoto (for all my fears there) both spring to mind.

Hope you're not talking about Owen Williams there. He's Welsh, don't put ideas in English heads. I think he would have been part of Wales' 6 nations squad, but he's gone and broken his jaw!

Jonny Williams is 19 and getting plenty of time for LI.

Is that the player that Wales Online ran an article about the other week? If I've got the right player, he's also Welsh qualified, so don't be surprised if Gats comes sniffing soon, especially if he continues to improve. Imo we're still looking for a distributing 12. I know everyone believe that Roberts is Gatland's idea of the perfect 12, but at the start he loved Henson, so I think he's wholly open to a distributer at 12, if a quality one emerges. That player might be Scott Williams, but he's not a natural distributer, it's something he's had to work at, and imo still needs to refine. He wad shocking in that regard in his early days, many a try blown due to his poor hands.

Anyway, end of thread derail.....

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

A lot of those are 13s or squad players.

I don't feel like we're short of EQP 12s starting. Eastmond, Burrell, Hill, Twelvetrees all start when fit; Matt Smith's current first choice at Leicester (I think, maybe just in temporary absence of Tuilagi). Quins had EQP 12s up until Roberts arriving this season and shat they all were. Oh jeeze, forgot about Barritt.

But yeah. There's enough EQP 12s around. They're just all not good enough. Whether the young ones are getting the chances... most are getting at least a chance, some get a lot of chance. Jonny Williams is 19 and getting plenty of time for LI.

Don't think the foreigners are the issue here.

Any UKIP posters wish to disagree?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Matt Smith for England 12.

There you go he is the form English 12 ATM shame he is 30.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Is that the player that Wales Online ran an article about the other week? If I've got the right player, he's also Welsh qualified

Played for Wales u16 at his Dad's request but as soon as England came calling he sprinted away from all that nonsense as fast as he could

 

[Peat]

Hope you're not talking about Owen Williams there. He's Welsh, don't put ideas in English heads. I think he would have been part of Wales' 6 nations squad, but he's gone and broken his jaw!



Is that the player that Wales Online ran an article about the other week? If I've got the right player, he's also Welsh qualified, so don't be surprised if Gats comes sniffing soon, especially if he continues to improve. Imo we're still looking for a distributing 12. I know everyone believe that Roberts is Gatland's idea of the perfect 12, but at the start he loved Henson, so I think he's wholly open to a distributer at 12, if a quality one emerges. That player might be Scott Williams, but he's not a natural distributer, it's something he's had to work at, and imo still needs to refine. He wad shocking in that regard in his early days, many a try blown due to his poor hands.

Anyway, end of thread derail.....

Same Williams both times and probably.

Imagine Gatland (and Cotter) would be interested but not afraid of losing him. Assuming playing for England is his first choice here mind. It helps that right now it's probably easier to get into the England team at 12 than Scotland or Wales.

 

[Tony Manx]

Go on my son............and don't just wait for some World Cup!!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...-England-elite-player-squad-win-trophies.html

 

[Tmartin995]

http://exeterchiefs.co.uk/news/baxter-updates-on-injury-front/

Updates on the English Chiefs players who are injured.
In summary:
Lees out for 4 months - surgery on arm.
Nowell not as bad as first feared, not training this week - knee.
Waldron dead leg not as bad as first feared.
Chudley not training this week - ankle sprain and minor ligament damage.
Hill out until after European games, struggling with pain - ankle.
Ewers out of brace running on grass, but not training, back after Europe - knee.
Cowan-Dickie out of cast and throwing line outs and mobility stuff, back after Europe - thumb.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

http://exeterchiefs.co.uk/news/baxter-updates-on-injury-front/

Updates on the English Chiefs players who are injured.
In summary:
Lees out for 4 months - surgery on arm.
Nowell not as bad as first feared, not training this week - knee.
Waldron dead leg not as bad as first feared.
Chudley not training this week - ankle sprain and minor ligament damage.
Hill out until after European games, struggling with pain - ankle.
Ewers out of brace running on grass, but not training, back after Europe - knee.
Cowan-Dickie out of cast and throwing line outs and mobility stuff, back after Europe - thumb.

Could be worse for England, still pretty poor for Exeter.

Not to mention for the players wanting to state a case in Europe.