England Post-WC discussion

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Our depth is pretty damn good (outside 12)

1st choice (IMO)
1) Vunipola, 2) George, 3) Brookes
4) Launchbury, 5) Kruis
6) Ewers, 7) Kvesic, 8) Vunipola
9) Youngs, 10) Farrell
12) ?, 13) Joesph
11) Nowell, 14) May, 15) Brown

2nd Choice
1) Mullan, 2) Youngs, 3) Cole
4) Attwood, 5) Itojie
6) Clifford, 7) Fraser, 8) Morgan
9) Care, 10) Ford
12) ?, 13) Manu
11) Roko, 14) Yarde, 15) Watson

3rd choice
1) Marler, 2) Hartley, 3) Wilson
4) Slater, 5) Kitchener
6) Robshaw, 7) Harrison, 8) Beaumont
9) Simpson, 10) Cips
12) ?, 13) Daly
11) Lewington, 14) Wade, 15) Goode

That's my 3rd choice England team and IMO that is still a competitive side. And with plenty of players like Waller, Heywood, etc etc left out

Outside 12 we are fine IMO.

 

[j'nuh]

I agree somewhat, but I think there is one crucial thing that means we shouldn't expect to be up there every time.

We have a big player base to choose from, but we can only choose as many players to represent us on the international level as everyone else. It means that we have ~30 (or whatever) tested internationals, so do Wales, so do Ireland etc. Then we have many more good, untested players than other teams.

So if we get lots of injuries and so do Wales, we will do better because of depth. But if we get lots of injuries and Wales only have a couple, the fact that so much of their squad is fully tested at international level gives them a lot of the advantage IMO. Unless we have more fixtures per year to hone more players, I don't see any way around this.

 

[Crapspray]

I agree somewhat, but I think there is one crucial thing that means we shouldn't expect to be up there every time.

We have a big player base to choose from, but we can only choose as many players to represent us on the international level as everyone else. It means that we have ~30 (or whatever) tested internationals, so do Wales, so do Ireland etc. Then we have many more good, untested players than other teams.

A couples of things:

The silver lining to Lancaster's injury cloud was that he had the opportunity to give a lot of reserve/fringe players 10 - 20 caps. So while the replacements may not be experienced internationals, the majority of them have been blooded. We also probably have 50 or so players in this position thanks to the Argentina Tour and Midweek/Saxons/BaaBaa games, along with Lancaster's shifting gameplan.

Most of the good injured players are inexperienced. Brookes has only come off the bench, Ewers has only played for the Saxons, Slade against second-string teams, Kruis last Autumn and Six Nations. While it's only small comfort, we don't really know what we're missing, and the players who will fill the gaps are usually more experienced.

Cole (56 caps)/Wilson (44 caps) --> Brookes (15 caps)
Robshaw (43 caps)/Haskell (62 caps)/Itoje (0 caps) --> Ewers (0 caps)
Daly (0 caps) --> Slade (2 caps) [though God knows if he was going to play at 12, Farrell (35 caps)?]
Parling (29 caps)/Lawes (42 caps) --> Kruis (10 caps)
Ashton (39 caps) --> May (19 caps)

---

As a reminder of the team went to Cardiff and won against a pretty much first-choice Wales and came within 7 points of winning the championship (caps at start of tournament):

1. Marler (26)
2. Hartley (61)
3. Cole (45)
4. Attwood (16)
5. Kruis (4)
6. Haskell (53)
7. Robshaw (32)
8. B. Vunipola (12)

9. B. Youngs (42)
10. Ford (6)
11. May (11)
12. Burrell (7)
13. Joseph (6)
14. Watson (4)
15. Brown (33)

Bar France, which is completely uncertain, I can't see any team other than Scotland being better than last year. Wales are basically the same team with slightly better depth; maybe Gatland will expand their game a little. Ireland have lost a legend and are in poor form domestically. If Jones is all we've cracked him up to be, then he should do well.

 

[Geordie]

Will Kruis and Launchbury pass the Concusion protocols from this weekend?

So far we have question marks over the following...that's a pretty impressive list.

Manu - I certainly wouldn't rush him back
Corbs - Pretty Expected.
Slater
Attwood
Kruis - TBC Concusion Protocols
Launchbury - TBC Concusion Protocols
Slade
Brookes
Ewers
May
Nowell - TBC Extent of injury

- - - Updated - - -

The press seem convinced Robshaw's written into 6 and is still a potential captain... either they're talking out of their arris (very credible tbf), or Eddie does rate him. Not quite clear cut at the moment.

I don't think Eddie doesn't like him. He was quite clear he doesn't see him as a 7. But then neither did most of us. As he 6 he offers a huge amount and don't forget he is actually good at getting turnovers. As a secondary turnover man behind Kvesic or Fraser, he could be VERY effective.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Wilson went quite well against Toulon. If he holds up over the next couple of weeks I'd be inclined to start him in the 6N. If nothing else it will send a message to Cole to up his game.

Am increasingly starting to like the look of Lewington. Something about his build / style makes me think he could adapt well to the international game.

 

[Mumbles119]

Wilson went quite well against Toulon. If he holds up over the next couple of weeks I'd be inclined to start him in the 6N. If nothing else it will send a message to Cole to up his game.

Am increasingly starting to like the look of Lewington. Something about his build / style makes me think he could adapt well to the international game.

I agree about Wilson - a rise in form could be very well timed for the 3 England shirt.

Lewington - again yes I too think he has more to give and certainly could be a prospect. But I cannot see Roko not getting a shot this time. Roko was superb against Toulon and has been pretty consistent for a little while now.

 

[Which Tyler]

I agree somewhat, but I think there is one crucial thing that means we shouldn't expect to be up there every time.

We have a big player base to choose from, but we can only choose as many players to represent us on the international level as everyone else. It means that we have ~30 (or whatever) tested internationals, so do Wales, so do Ireland etc. Then we have many more good, untested players than other teams.

So if we get lots of injuries and so do Wales, we will do better because of depth. But if we get lots of injuries and Wales only have a couple, the fact that so much of their squad is fully tested at international level gives them a lot of the advantage IMO. Unless we have more fixtures per year to hone more players, I don't see any way around this.

I've been saying this sort of thing for years (elsewhere, obviously).

Our player numbers mean that we (should) have the best 8th XV in the world; but makes no real difference to the 1st XV. If anything, our numbers are a hinderance at 1st XV level.

ETA: Sod it, I've expanded elsewhere recently, I'll just copy/paste it into here:

Part of England's problem is actually our strength in depth - meaning that our 6th XV would be favourites over just about anyone else's 6th XV.

This means that players don't really get much leeway for poor performances, as there's always someone to take their place; and (further) encourages safety-first rugby. Equally, if a coach does show that faith in a player they've identified, and sticks with them, then the coach get's criticised for sticking with favourites.
If Ireland for example (but really, it applies to anyone except England and France, even applying to South Africa) uncover a genuinely gifted youngster, they invest the time and money into that player, and look after his welfare from age-grade transitioning at each level up to international, and stick with him through a drought, and do their damndest for that player to maximise their potential - see the progress of Sexton, and now Madigan as prime examples.

In England if we did that and stick with, for example Farrell - then there are cries about Ford, or Cipriani, or Burns, or Slade being ignored and not given the same chances. How do you build experience into players? how do you give them the confidence to try things? how do you give them belief that they won't be dropped because of the bounce of a ball, or a mistake by a different player? how do you build continuity in playing units?
How do you arrive at a RWC with a squad averaging 40 caps, but with all the potential challengers having being given a fair shot at proving their worth?

You could get a new coach in, and tell them to select who they think will be the best backrow (for an example of an area that is most in need of an overhaul) for the RWC in 2019; they could viably pick (arranged by age, not preference; and all vaguely balanced):
Robshaw, Haskell, Armitage
OR
Croft, Wood, Frazer
OR
Burgess, Morgan, Symons
OR
Ewers, Hughes, Clark
OR
Sisi, Beaumont, Kvesic
OR
Itoje, Vunipola, Clifford


Other nations are so much better at nurturing talent; up through the age grades; step up to senior rugby, step up to international rugby, come through second season syndrome... They have to, they usually don't have another cab on the rank of broadly similar talent.

Ireland nurtured Sexton, and are now nurturing Madigan. England nurtured Wilkinson, then failed to nurture Hodgson, then failed to nurture Flood, then failed to nurture Cipriani, then failed to nurture Lamb, then failed to nurture Burns, then nurtured Farrell, whilst failing to nurture Ford, and may yet fail to nurture Slade.


And yes, before Morepork or Eugene comes along "Cry me a river" It's a problem that a world class coach would love; it's a problem that would sink a lesser coach.

Of course, it's a great problem to have; any new coach can essentially pick any game-plan they chose, and what role they want from each position, and find 2-3 players perfectly suited to that, and with the talent to be vaguely comfortable at international level - they just won't necessarily be the best players in their position, or the current darling of the media or message boards; which means no leeway is likely to be given for a run of poor results.
Again, that comes to my previous last sentence, a great coach can make us world class fairly easily; a poor coach will sink in indecision - as has just been proven. 4-6th in the IRB ranking is par for England, with a competent coach.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I know I'm Bath biased but I thought Cook did well for Bath against Toulon, good service and a pretty hefty boot. He's 24 so has a good few years in him. Anyone think he has England potential in this world cup cycle?

 

[Maverick1987]

Particularly given the likelihood of us picking a relatively mobile front 5 (...but not only in the case of), I really don't agree with your point that a 6/8 combo of Dave/Billy is fundamentally unworkable.

Since there's no premiership game tomorrow night, it might be an idea to watch the Ospreys game... Sam Underhill is starting at 7.

You have an eye for a talent rats . Underhill was in the team of the week and there was some superb performances at 7 this weekend aswell

Hope he comes back to England .....

 

[Wendigo7]

I know I'm Bath biased but I thought Cook did well for Bath against Toulon, good service and a pretty hefty boot. He's 24 so has a good few years in him. Anyone think he has England potential in this world cup cycle?

Yes, I think he's a very handy scrummie and some of his kicking was/is superb.

Would be right in the mix for an england spot for me, but most will just look at Care/Youngs/Simpson.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I know I'm Bath biased but I thought Cook did well for Bath against Toulon, good service and a pretty hefty boot. He's 24 so has a good few years in him. Anyone think he has England potential in this world cup cycle?

In a word: Yes.
Really rated Cook ever since I saw him for London Welsh a couple of seasons back.

I'd take him over Simpson, to be honest.
Should definitely be in the Saxons when it's announced.

 

[Wendigo7]

I actually think Cook and Ford might be the best pick with Farrell at 12.

I'm not sold on Ewers actually, just seems to be a bulky robshaw to me. Not fast enough either and as a Quins fan I could well label that at Robshaw too I suppose.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Not fast enough either and as a Quins fan I could well label that at Robshaw too I suppose.

Absolute horse**** - he's plenty fast enough for a big blindside.

Interesting tidbit from this guardian article: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/11/mike-brown-sit-around-rugby-world-cup-final

There is a suspicion Jones harbours doubts about Goode’s lack of pace and that Anthony Watson may eventually be moved from wing to full-back. Yet it also seems likely Jones will relish Brown’s searing commitment.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yyyyeeessss!

Goode's lack of pace is his biggest issue at international level - was exposed time and time again vs....France? I think it was, in the RWC warm ups?
They just kept kicking in behind knowing he didn't have the pace to be an effective sweeper.


Also, as an aside, I was really impressed by Watson's tackling against Toulon. I never had any issues with it in the past, but I remember at one point he had one of their big big forwards (can't remember who) in full flight running right at him and he chopped him down.

 

[LUKE12]

How likely is it that Eddie Jones will pick Lewington in the England squad tomorrow anyone?
And any news on the Nowell injury, when will he be fit?

 

[ratsapprentice]

More from this article: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/bl...england-squad-world-cup-hangover-announcement

According to sources inside Twickenham, Jones is not convinced England currently have any players worthy of a World XV, nor that they all work hard enough.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

How likely is it that Eddie Jones will pick Lewington in the England squad tomorrow anyone?
And any news on the Nowell injury, when will he be fit?

Hard to say.
If he's looking at Watson as a FB, isn't interested in Goode, has May confirmed injured and we're not sure on Nowell then he's going to be looking to bring in a few back three players.
I think Ashton will be one - beyond that I've no idea of the pecking order.
Lewington is highly rated by fans and pundits, and is consistently a very high performer and great finisher - he'll surely be pretty high up the list.

 

[Irish boy]

Lewington can play 15 and he is plenty good enough. Hope he makes it lad has come a long way.

 

[chippieolamus]

It worries me that in that guardian article Roko is not in the possible squad. What more can he do?

 

[ratsapprentice]

It worries me that in that guardian article Roko is not in the possible squad. What more can he do?

In the past the journalists have described teams that have been leaked as "probable" squads, not "possible" squads.