England Post-WC discussion

[Geordie]

Launch is probably the strongest scrummager of the 3, no way he's a 6 anymore. Itoje at 6 or 19 for me. Itoje packs down behind the loosehead for Sarries.

4. Launch, 5. Kruis, 6. Beaumont/BV, 7. Kveisc, 8. BV/Beaumont 19. Itoje. 20. Clifford

Think I'd take a look at that.

Beaumont? That's an interesting call.

Has he played consistently well enough to make a push for the squad?

Many might disagree but I still think Robshaw will run out at 6 at Murrayfield. He might not be the 7 Eddie Jones seems to want, but he's still a quality back row, with bags of energy and workrate and a tackle machine. Add in experience and a lineout option and he is an ideal 6.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Launch is probably the strongest scrummager of the 3, no way he's a 6 anymore. Itoje at 6 or 19 for me. Itoje packs down behind the loosehead for Sarries.

4. Launch, 5. Kruis, 6. Beaumont/BV, 7. Kveisc, 8. BV/Beaumont 19. Itoje. 20. Clifford

Think I'd take a look at that.

Looks nice, but I'd definitely have Ewers above Beaumont especially at 6.

I'm also not one for rushing into things with new players such as Clifford, and Robshaw has played very well for England for the most part. So I agree with Geordiefalcon, I think Robshaw is the incumbent blindside. We may find a massive multiplier effect playing him alongside Kvesic - let's hope.

 

[McTallshort]

Looks nice, but I'd definitely have Ewers above Beaumont especially at 6.

I'm also not one for rushing into things with new players such as Clifford, and Robshaw has played very well for England for the most part. So I agree with Geordiefalcon, I think Robshaw is the incumbent blindside. We may find a massive multiplier effect playing him alongside Kvesic - let's hope.

Isn't ewers injured?

 

[Peat]

Looks nice, but I'd definitely have Ewers above Beaumont especially at 6.

That too may be quite difficult right now.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I agree about Robshaw, he hasn't been terrible for England, the problem was he wasn't doing the 7 role very well and a workhorse was not what we needed. If we have Kvesic at 7 and proper power elsewhere, suddenly his workhorse attitude becomes an asset we need. Couple that with experience and I don't see it as necessary to drop him at this stage. He may also act as a moderating influence on Hartley. Longer term I think he may be replaced, in particular I want to see Ewers given a go, but I think focussing just on the workhorse element to his game without captain duties or extra breakdown duties and he could be useful.

 

[Raggs]

What does Ewers offer that Billy V doesn't?

I don't think he's a better carrier, don't think he's any more active in the lineout, don't think he's much faster or slower, no better in the breakdown, not a harder worker.

He's older and unproven at international. Why give him caps bv could get.

Ewers and BV playing together is a bit too one dimensional for me.

 

[Geordie]

Looks nice, but I'd definitely have Ewers above Beaumont especially at 6.

I'm also not one for rushing into things with new players such as Clifford, and Robshaw has played very well for England for the most part. So I agree with Geordiefalcon, I think Robshaw is the incumbent blindside. We may find a massive multiplier effect playing him alongside Kvesic - let's hope.

That's actually something I thought about aswell. Robshaw is actually pretty good at the breakdown and does get a very good share of turnovers. If he played with a real poacher like Kvesic or Fraser, as a secondary breakdown man...he could be very effective.

- - - Updated - - -

Well Ewers is out anyway so it doesn't matter for the moment.

6 Robshaw
7 Kvesic
8 Vunipola

Could be a nicely balanced backrow.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

What does Ewers offer that Billy V doesn't?

I don't think he's a better carrier, don't think he's any more active in the lineout, don't think he's much faster or slower, no better in the breakdown, not a harder worker.

He's older and unproven at international. Why give him caps bv could get.

Ewers and BV playing together is a bit too one dimensional for me.

Billy V runs at people.

Ewers has quite a few more dimensions to his game.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Beaumont? That's an interesting call.

Has he played consistently well enough to make a push for the squad?

Easily playing consistently enough, but I don't think he'll make the squad. We already have two pretty experienced, and young, 8s in Binny and Benny.
Beaumont could get in if Jones wants a backrower to also cover lock (like Lancaster picking Easter).
Otherwise I think it'd take an injury for Beaumont to get in, I reckon.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't think he's a better carrier, don't think he's any more active in the lineout, don't think he's much faster or slower, no better in the breakdown, not a harder worker.

Yes he is - "harder worker" is a weird way to put it, but yes, Ewers has a higher work rate than Billy - significantly so.

Which is necessary as a 6.

 

[ZeroTwo]

Yes he is - "harder worker" is a weird way to put it, but yes, Ewers has a higher work rate than Billy - significantly so.

Which is necessary as a 6.

Are you basing this on watching England or Saracens? For England he was that one hit single dimension player I think you're referring to. Saracens, however, he does a lot more. That MAY be the step up from club to international or it might be how he has been asked to play.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Eh?

I didn't say Billy had a low work rate - I'm saying Ewers has a freakish one.

 

[ZeroTwo]

Eh?

I didn't say Billy had a low work rate - I'm saying Ewers has a freakish one.

Ah fair. Every time I've watched Ewers he's been all over the park. However not sure every player who plays like that can equate it to international.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You can't be sure of anyone, even after they've done it in the past.

Consistent high level performance is really the only way to be somewhat confident.

 

[Raggs]

BV's workrate during the 6N was insane. Joint highest carrier at 64 (Stuart Hogg also 64). Joint 2nd highest tackler of the tournament (Wales - 14, Italy - 17, Ire - 13, Sco - 14, Fra - 21) 79 tackles total (Robshaw made 82, Jonny Gray also 79). And was hitting his share of rucks.

He runs at people, he also made some lovely breaks, and has proven in AP semis/finals to be able to get himself locked over the breakdown and winning turnovers.

I really rate Ewers, but I don't see anything significantly better in Ewers than what BV already offers, but BV is proven at international, has played at a higher level in general for longer, including finals, and is younger as well. They're similar players that couldn't play together, and if I can only pick one, I'm picking BV every time.

Beaumont is like a hefty version of Croft. He'll smash fairly well, but he's got pace to burn and is very effective in the lineout, normally plays 8, but if you have an 8 like BV, I think a 6 like Beaumont would be a very good compliment, especially if finalised with a fetcher at 7. Throw in 2 fairly athletic locks in Launch and Kruis, with Itoje on the bench, and I think it's a good balance.

 

[Irish boy]

Nobody talking about Morgan know he has been injured. But even when he plays badly for Gloucster always plays well for England actually think he plays better for England than Vunipola and definetly better than how he plays at Glaws.

Also Ewers is more than just a ball carrier he has great work rate and can cause absolute carnage

 

[Peat]

General point on the Vunipola vs Ewers thing - the benefit of that extra international experience can't be held as definitive for ever.

Because if we make Vunipola a focal point of our game plan, then Ewers is our most like for like replacement. At some point that means Ewers gets games. Once he gets games, then the advantage of international experience goes anyway. If we think Ewers is actually the better player, we might as well fast forwards to this point.

Personally I'm happy to let Eddie to do the hard work on picking between the two anyway.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Particularly given the likelihood of us picking a relatively mobile front 5 (...but not only in the case of), I really don't agree with your point that a 6/8 combo of Dave/Billy is fundamentally unworkable.

Since there's no premiership game tomorrow night, it might be an idea to watch the Ospreys game... Sam Underhill is starting at 7.

 

[Maverick1987]

Particularly given the likelihood of us picking a relatively mobile front 5 (...but not only in the case of), I really don't agree with your point that a 6/8 combo of Dave/Billy is fundamentally unworkable.

Since there's no premiership game tomorrow night, it might be an idea to watch the Ospreys game... Sam Underhill is starting at 7.

Is Sam Underhill English ?

 

[Peat]

Is Sam Underhill English ?

Yup.