England Post-WC discussion

[Vieux Talonneur]

We were having the same "England decimated by injuries" conversation ooooh, about a year ago. And the demands we put on our players mean that we'll be having it in a year's time too.

Injuries are a fact of sporting life, but this situation means that Jones will be swimming uphill from the start in trying to judge his preferred players / combinations.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

We were having the same "England decimated by injuries" conversation ooooh, about a year ago. And the demands we put on our players mean that we'll be having it in a year's time too.

Injuries are a fact of sporting life, but this situation means that Jones will be swimming uphill from the start in trying to judge his preferred players / combinations.

I wouldn't say decimated- not more than a couple would start from that list. It's just sad to see such a swathe of the up and coming being unavailable.

A different scenario to last year, when Tuilagi, Barritt, Farrell, Parling, Lawes, Cole, Wood and several other potentially starting players were injured.

 

[Peat]

I've just looked up, well ****. Maybe Kruis and Launch will be big enough ? Looks like Itoje will be put there then.

I've seen an England team beat France with Parling and Lawes in the second row in the last 12 months. So, yeah, Kruis and Launch would probably be big enough.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I wouldn't say decimated- not more than a couple would start from that list. It's just sad to see such a swathe of the up and coming being unavailable.

A different scenario to last year, when Tuilagi, Barritt, Farrell, Parling, Lawes, Cole, Wood and several other potentially starting players were injured.

Not quite as bad, but not great. I accept that Manu and Corbs have been out of the picture for a while but if fit and firing they'd be starters almost certainly alongside Slade, Brookes & May. That's a third of a team with Atwood & Ewers have many strong advocates too. And there are still a few weeks to go....

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I've seen an England team beat France with Parling and Lawes in the second row in the last 12 months. So, yeah, Kruis and Launch would probably be big enough.

I think Kruis and Launch would be fine, but sadly I don't think you can use beating France as any kind of benchmark these days.

 

[Geordie]

Ok im going to put it out there...

Maro Itoje (December player of the month)- Is all the hype correct, or is he not quite as good as everyone keeps saying.

I see the potential , but im just not quite seeing these performances that I keep reading about. Are people getting a little carried away...or am I the one missing something?

Ive only seen him live once, when Sarries came to Kingston Park and in all honesty our Lock Sean Robinson outplayed him.

I also think Kruis has been quite well ahead of him performance wise.

Whats your opinions gents?

 

[Maverick1987]

Ok im going to put it out there...

Maro Itoje (December player of the month)- Is all the hype correct, or is he not quite as good as everyone keeps saying.

I see the potential , but im just not quite seeing these performances that I keep reading about. Are people getting a little carried away...or am I the one missing something?

Ive only seen him live once, when Sarries came to Kingston Park and in all honesty our Lock Sean Robinson outplayed him.

I also think Kruis has been quite well ahead of him performance wise.

Whats your opinions gents?

He won 2 MOTM in December and was Aviva player of the month . I also thought he had an unbelievable game against Leicester last Saturday he was simply everywhere . I've not seen every game he's played but the ones I have seen he's been awesome . I think it's a testament to him that he's 21 and most people think he should be MOTM every game

 

[TheSaffycen]

I think you have to put into context the age of the guy. I would agree that Kruis has been playing better, but I think he's atm one of the top locks in the league on form.
Itoje May not always be the standout but I've yet to see him have a bad game, his level of performance rangers from 6.5-10 He has the potential to always be a 8-10 player

 

[McTallshort]

He won 2 MOTM in December and was Aviva player of the month . I also thought he had an unbelievable game against Leicester last Saturday he was simply everywhere . I've not seen every game he's played but the ones I have seen he's been awesome . I think it's a testament to him that he's 21 and most people think he should be MOTM every game

Agree, he was horrible against us in a good way. Don't get this anti Itoje thing going on. What's everyones problem?

 

[Geordie]

Interesting to hear guys.

So would you be happy for him to start a few 6n games?

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Agree, he was horrible against us in a good way. Don't get this anti Itoje thing going on. What's everyones problem?

Trust me I don't have an anti itoje thing going on. Im just trying to keep level headed about the young guy.

Too often players are hyped up to the hilt and fail to reach that.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Don't think there is a anti Itojie motive by people.

Just tempering expectations.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Interesting to hear guys.

So would you be happy for him to start a few 6n games?

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Trust me I don't have an anti itoje thing going on. Im just trying to keep level headed about the young guy.

Too often players are hyped up to the hilt and fail to reach that.

I would be happy for him to get game time, starting possibly not. If he comes away from this 6 nations with 1 start and 2 or 3 sub appearances that would show him the set up.
Eddie Jones really needs success, I would play Kruis and Launch as they are the more all rounded players. All depends though. We go out and lose our first 2 games then you may as well give him the rest of the tournament at starter.

 

[Crapspray]

Don't think there is a anti Itojie motive by people.

Just tempering expectations.

This.

He's only just turned 21 and is enjoying his second proper season at Sarries. Let's not attach all our hopes to him and be surprised when one personnel change doesn't turn England around. (See: George Ford for further details.)

He will play for England, and he will likely be captain at some point too, but some of the hopes attached to him are unreasonable (not here, mainly in the press).

If he plays in the Six Nations I won't complain at all, but don't be surprised if he doesn't have a major impact at international level until the 2017/8 season. If he does it faster then I'll be happy to be proved wrong.

 

[Mumbles119]

I would be happy for him to get game time, starting possibly not. If he comes away from this 6 nations with 1 start and 2 or 3 sub appearances that would show him the set up.
Eddie Jones really needs success, I would play Kruis and Launch as they are the more all rounded players. All depends though. We go out and lose our first 2 games then you may as well give him the rest of the tournament at starter.

Yes Itoje certainly seems to have the scrummaging strength and ability to make his mark on the squad this 6N.

The success that Eddie Jones needs is not necessarily 6N wins, I think it will be to show success with getting more from the players than the previous set up, success in the areas of break down operators, and strong consistent set pieces that obviously failed during the RWC, and success with a game plan and system that is clear for the players and works for the make-up of the team. Hopefully these three successes will also mean wins too!

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Arguably on form Kruis and Itoje should start. But I'd be gob smacked if Launch isn't picked and Kruis is definitely the next cab off the rank. But it would make sense to start giving Itoje time from the bench.

PS Mumbles, I think winning should absolutely be Jones first second and third priority. Far easier to introduce new players like Slade, Itoje, LCD etc into a winning culture than expect them to turn things around.

 

[ZeroTwo]

Itoje on the bench also gives blindside cover. Means you can drop Haskell/Lawes/Easter I guess.

However on the Itoje debate: I side with those going for caution. We have 4 years for the next rugby world cup, and just because we're in a terrible state now we don't actually have to panic. Nothing worse than getting the mental block of a bad debut where if he is brought in slowly then he can play without fear.

 

[j'nuh]

England's fixture list:

Scotland, Italy, Ireland, Wales, France

For Scotland, play 4. Launchbury 5. Kruis 19. Itoje
For Italy, play 4. Launchbury 5. Itoje 19. Kruis
For the rest, pick the best performer out of Kruis and Itoje to join berry.

Itoje is introduced in a low-pressure game, but given the chance to spread his wings if he impresses.

 

[Geordie]

Johnny may is out for the season after surgery on his knee.

 

[TheSaffycen]

That's a shame, hopefully Rokoduguni and Nowell are on the wings.
Does anyone think that Jones might put Itoje and Kruis starting ? If he really wants scrummaging prowess then he probably won't look beyond sarries. Kruis and Itoje know each other very well and both give you an all round game. Launchbury is better but with a new set up maybe he might look at club combination. All three of them can play lock and blindside though. Maybe he'll go for all three together and you have scrummaging power, lineout and rou d the park. All have had games with 15+tackles and not that rarely. What about a pack of
1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Cole 4.Kruis 5.Itoje 6.Launchbury 7.Kvesic 8.Vunipola
16.Hartley 17.Marler 18.Thomas 19.Lawes/Fraser 20.Morgan

 

[Josht36]

That's a shame, hopefully Rokoduguni and Nowell are on the wings.
Does anyone think that Jones might put Itoje and Kruis starting ? If he really wants scrummaging prowess then he probably won't look beyond sarries. Kruis and Itoje know each other very well and both give you an all round game. Launchbury is better but with a new set up maybe he might look at club combination. All three of them can play lock and blindside though. Maybe he'll go for all three together and you have scrummaging power, lineout and rou d the park. All have had games with 15+tackles and not that rarely. What about a pack of
1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Cole 4.Kruis 5.Itoje 6.Launchbury 7.Kvesic 8.Vunipola
16.Hartley 17.Marler 18.Thomas 19.Lawes/Fraser 20.Morgan

I would agree with those forwards. Pretty much the form picks. The only worry are the tightheads. Cole has not had his usual dominance this season. However he has more than enough credit in the bank for me. Don't think Thomas should be in there. His discipline and scrummaging have both been poor for Bath this year.

 

[Raggs]

Launch is probably the strongest scrummager of the 3, no way he's a 6 anymore. Itoje at 6 or 19 for me. Itoje packs down behind the loosehead for Sarries.

4. Launch, 5. Kruis, 6. Beaumont/BV, 7. Kveisc, 8. BV/Beaumont 19. Itoje. 20. Clifford

Think I'd take a look at that.