England Post-WC discussion

[Tony Manx]

Or one of Fraser, kvesic and Clifford

Are they sniffers too?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Are they sniffers too?

Yup, and excellent examples of them.

Well I don't disagree but given who the new defence coach is I'm willing to bet Fraser gets the nod first

Which would be the correct call, as he's playing better.
Both should be in the EPS, though, IMO.

 

[ratsapprentice]

That would be a travesty.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Would that be Haskell?

Haskell is built like an outhouse, he's a 6 through and through, I don't know who you have in the prem to choose from but there's gotta be someone in the line if Jones is going to pick a sniffer.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why?
If it's to point
a) Fraser is playing better. He's still missing games through returning from a series of long term injuries, but hes still the better of the two (imo)
b) Nothing wrong with having two opensides in an extended squad.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Because I don't think he's playing better.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ah, fair enough.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Prefer Fraser ATM but that might be because Saracens pack as a whole look good.

Kvesic would have been better off with a more dominate pack that plays Champions cup rugby really.

I really like him though nonetheless.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Precisely - Fraser is consistently rotated to keep him as fresh as possible, playing for one of the most tightly organised teams in the world, compared with Kvesic playing for one of the most unimpressively underachieving squads in Europe, and playing almost every game for the past two years.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

We should pick Mark Wilson at 8, then.
I've been as impressed with him as with Binny and Benny, but compare his pack to Sarries and Gloucesters....


As I said, I'd have both in the EPS and pick whichever is training best/working best with the other backrowers. Either will be a HUGE step up from our breakdown work of the last...decade plus!

 

[The Jones Boy]

I think Jones is going to make a massive improvement to England's results.
Especially in the 6 Nations.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Kvesic has shown over the past 2 years that he's the best we have.
I love Fraser as a player, but the 6 nations is a few weeks away and he'll probably be injured by then.
Comparing the 2 in stats Fraser was better over the ball and made more tackles, with Gustard at the helm he may be picked over him. Kvesic is as good as Fraser in defence IMO. Kvesic then has a bit more about him with ball in hand.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Kvesic has shown over the past 2 years that he's the best we have.
I love Fraser as a player, but the 6 nations is a few weeks away and he'll probably be injured by then.
Comparing the 2 in stats Fraser was better over the ball and made more tackles, with Gustard at the helm he may be picked over him. Kvesic is as good as Fraser in defence IMO. Kvesic then has a bit more about him with ball in hand.

We could end up with a sarries back for England of

6. Itoje
7. Fraser
8. Binny

There would be no biased picking that back row. All played themselves into the England team.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That'd be an absolute banger of a backrow, to be fair.

Still wondering where Itoje will end up - I'd prefer him at 6, but he's getting most of his game time at lock at the moment. He is only 8 years old, though, so not like he's committing himself for life to a position at the moment.

 

[McTallshort]

That'd be an absolute banger of a backrow, to be fair.

Still wondering where Itoje will end up - I'd prefer him at 6, but he's getting most of his game time at lock at the moment. He is only 8 years old, though, so not like he's committing himself for life to a position at the moment.

Austin Healy (yes I know) has Itoje in the 2nd row and lawes in at 6. Could work I suppose but would prefer itoje to start on the bench for backrow 2nd row cover

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Austin Healy (yes I know) has Itoje in the 2nd row and lawes in at 6. Could work I suppose but would prefer itoje to start on the bench for backrow 2nd row cover

And he also thinks Nowell would be a decent 7.....

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Austin Healy (yes I know) has Itoje in the 2nd row and lawes in at 6. Could work I suppose but would prefer itoje to start on the bench for backrow 2nd row cover

That's weird.
Lawes has never really impressed me at 6, whereas I view Itoje as a bit too small for a top level lock - then again if they're both on the pitch they'd share workloads/fill in where needed in whatever role, it's only in the scrum it'd really matter and, to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised is Itoje was stronger than Lawes there (Itoje strikes as one of those incredibly naturally gifted players who also has a huge work rate to improve themselves, so he'd probably be physically stronger/fitter than a lot of seasoned internationals, despite his age/experience).

 

[Peat]

Not true Olyy. Scrums tire locks out a lot more than they do back row forwards, and that is going to affect what you get out of the lock in the loose.

I think you're overthinking this one. Healy's spouting gibberish to get attention is the most obvious answer here. Lawes is categorically not an international blindside, we'll see where Itoje ends up and whether he truly has the talent for the top level in time (probably but never sure).


Also, on the prospect of the Sarries back row for England, we could do worse, but Billy needs to be a more devastating carrier to be the lynchpin of the pack there (could make it happen, but has to make it happen) and Fraser should probably be doing more outside defence too. Kvesic's more all round game probably makes him my first port of call there, unless Fraser turns out to be Pocock mk 2 at international level... which I've not seen yet.

 

[McTallshort]

Not true Olyy. Scrums tire locks out a lot more than they do back row forwards, and that is going to affect what you get out of the lock in the loose

The only player I have ever seen that can play lock but still have the engine to tear around the pitch like a back row was Tom Croft. Not sure he could do it now but a few years ago he could scrummage for 70 minutes and still be on the end of a pass and cut through the opposition defence, explains why he's always picked for the EPS or Lions when fit but some still don't rate him.

 

[Peat]

The only player I have ever seen that can play lock but still have the engine to tear around the pitch like a back row was Tom Croft. Not sure he could do it now but a few years ago he could scrummage for 70 minutes and still be on the end of a pass and cut through the opposition defence, explains why he's always picked for the EPS or Lions when fit but some still don't rate him.

I know it'd be boring and stupid if we said "Coach picked him, must be good", but the level of scorn seen for a two-time Lion with 40 England caps is pretty bizarre, and the unwillingness of some people to sit down and consider why so many pro coaches have rated him even more so. If he's still fit and in form come this spring, someone should have to be really going that extra yard to be in front of him.