[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

He'll never win a bout. His style's too messy and his guard's awful. Oh hang on...
Any idea if Leicester are thinking of him as a twelve?

Been mentioned by our CEO that he might be looked @ 12 with Tait 13.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Been mentioned by our CEO that he might be looked @ 12 with Tait 13.

Cool, thanks. Weird that the CEO has a say in selection, or is he just privy to more of Cockerill's inner thoughts?
EDIT: And wow. Tuilagi-Tait sounds... really, really nice

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Cool, thanks. Weird that the CEO has a say in selection, or is he just privy to more of Cockerill's inner thoughts?
EDIT: And wow. Tuilagi-Tait sounds... really, really nice

He was talking about how there isn't any marquee 12's worth the money ATM and they don't want to bring in anyone for the hell of it, he said that Mauger will look at the available 12's we have already and Manus name came up as an option to look at mentioning how he had played there at the start of his career with Mauger playing 10. (Dat Leicester Tigers V South Africa game which I would love to post again for the 10000000x because it is a wonderful game so if you what to see the highlights just ask and I will post it again )


Edit: Mauger has sat on backs not Cockerill and Mauger has apparently been teaching them his week how to pass (according to Sam Harrison) so that could work with Manu.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I do hope we don't look for crashball only in the centre. Wales do that and it has cost them big time, we used to do that last time Tuilagi played regularly. It seems that as soon as teams but crashball players in the centre, they rely on them too much and become 1 dimensional. Crashball with the ability to do other things is good and Manu would be idela post-WC if he passes out of contact (and more importantly doesn't look to try to smash through a player when he can easily hit the shoulder and attempt a break). #Callumclarkknowshow

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I do hope we don't look for crashball only in the centre. Wales do that and it has cost them big time, we used to do that last time Tuilagi played regularly. It seems that as soon as teams but crashball players in the centre, they rely on them too much and become 1 dimensional. Crashball with the ability to do other things is good and Manu would be idela post-WC if he passes out of contact (and more importantly doesn't look to try to smash through a player when he can easily hit the shoulder and attempt a break). #Callumclarkknowshow

He has shown he can do that though.

He did it in his early games.

(In that SA game for example).

It's just been since he got capped that he turn into such a 1 dimensional player though.

This is the Manu I'm hoping Mauger will bring out:

7:00
[video=youtube_share;TieXbxbb1Cc]http://youtu.be/TieXbxbb1Cc[/video]

2:00
[video=youtube_share;ovH1U-JblIs]http://youtu.be/ovH1U-JblIs[/video]

And the pass at 2:00

[video=youtube_share;YiQur_Rehnc]http://youtu.be/YiQur_Rehnc[/video]

IMO he has all the attributes (bar kicking ) to work at 12 and is only 23.

 

[Maverick1987]

He has shown he can do that though.

He did it in his early games.

(In that SA game for example).

It's just been since he got capped that he turn into such a 1 dimensional player though.

This is the Manu I'm hoping Mauger will bring out:

7:00
[video=youtube_share;TieXbxbb1Cc]http://youtu.be/TieXbxbb1Cc[/video]

2:00
[video=youtube_share;ovH1U-JblIs]http://youtu.be/ovH1U-JblIs[/video]

And the pass at 2:00

[video=youtube_share;YiQur_Rehnc]http://youtu.be/YiQur_Rehnc[/video]

IMO he has all the attributes (bar kicking ) to work at 12 and is only 23.

To be fair for almost all of Manu's England career he's been used in a one trick pony back line . I'll save my judgement for when he plays between Ford and JJ

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

He has shown he can do that though.

He did it in his early games.

(In that SA game for example).

It's just been since he got capped that he turn into such a 1 dimensional player though.

This is the Manu I'm hoping Mauger will bring out:

7:00
[video=youtube_share;TieXbxbb1Cc]http://youtu.be/TieXbxbb1Cc[/video]

2:00
[video=youtube_share;ovH1U-JblIs]http://youtu.be/ovH1U-JblIs[/video]

And the pass at 2:00

[video=youtube_share;YiQur_Rehnc]http://youtu.be/YiQur_Rehnc[/video]

IMO he has all the attributes (bar kicking ) to work at 12 and is only 23.

What skills does manu have that would make him a good 12?

He isn't a defensive leader, he doesn't have a good passing game, he doesn't make massive ground in the tighter spaces because he gets gang tackled.

I just think he is a better 13 than 12 with more space to work in....but as he is only 23 he could be taught these things but it's difficult for a player to change the way they play.

 

[ratsapprentice]

He isn't a defensive leader

JJ is.

he doesn't have a good passing game

His offloading game is decent - it's an issue in either position.

he doesn't make massive ground in the tighter spaces because he gets gang tackled.

Exactly - he's drawing in 2-3 defenders who have to mark him.

 

[Peat]

Compare and contrast Manu with Jamie Roberts...

All Manu has to do at 12 is take on crash ball (which he'll do better than just about anyone in the world), pass when Ford/Joseph tells him to, be his usual horrible self when he gets to carry wider... that's about it, actually. Kicking 12s are ideal but there's been a long list of very distinguished 12s who you wouldn't really want punting the thing. You'd prefer it if he could throw a nice miss-pass as well without instructions (or it being a bad idea), but it seems to be pretty rare to see a 12 doing it.

There are no ideal 12s out there, not really. Maybe Nonu at a stretch (and he famously was a late learner). And if you can't have the ideal, having the most physical midfielder in rugby's not the worst idea ever.

 

[yaboyjj]

I agree that he doesn't need to suddenly become an excellent distributor to successfully play at 12- just being a focal point for the attack, getting Ford out of trouble when he gets caught on the gain line and representing a credible threat as a dummy runner is about enough. I also think that Joseph has come on a long way from 2012 and certainly has the pace to clean up any positional errors in defence Tuilagi might (and sometimes does) make.
I'm sure Joseph would switch it up playing at IC too with some plays- having a fb with decent distribution/passing skills would be nice too....

I've been thinking about what the backline might look like next year and how you could get all the best players on the field- Slade, Tuilagi, Joseph, Ford... might Joseph end up on the wing? I get the feeling that Daly should have stayed as a fb if he wanted an England shot

 

[TheSaffycen]

Or having Ford,Tuilagi,Joseph and Cips at 15?

 

[Peat]

I would far rather see Slade concentrate on 10. We might even see an end to Fazlet if done that way. And, while Daly at 15 looked better for him as an England player, I'd be excited about the idea of him and Joseph competing for a shirt. Actual depth. That would be something to get excited about.

 

[ncurd]

I really wouldn't put JJ on the wing one England's biggest transgressions in recent years was getting the ball out to the wings. Now we have players willing to do it we don't want stick them there instead forever hoping to see the ball.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I would far rather see Slade concentrate on 10.

As would I - I don't understand why everyone is so focused on moving him to the centre.

 

[TobesHodges]

Slade I think could be the #1 fly half if he stayed there, I like what Fords doing, but I can't help but have that feeling that he'll choke at the vital moments, I don't think Farrell would but doesn't have the attacking game needed to beat the top teams at a WC, but slade looks peerless when he plays, he was massive for an Exeter team that on paper shouldn't have been anywhere near the top! He has a great mix of big defence (for his size) and good attack.. If only we could morph ford and Farrell, I guess we'd make Johnny wilkinson but think Slade could be close..

 

[yaboyjj]

The reason why everyone wants Slade to make the move to centre is because Ford looks like he could become a really really special player, with Farrell as a more than able deputy- both of whom are more or less Slades' age. Why waste a talent like that on the bench/not even in squad until maybe one day he surpasses Ford (will it ever happen?) when he could make the 12 (13 maybe) spot his own, which is a position in which there is, and for the foreseeable future will be, sparse pickings in terms of actual talent.

Imo, he has looked better at 13 than at 10 for Chiefs (lots of variables involved, ok), the wabblies have done fairly similar things with Toomua, Lealliafano etc., who often play 10 for club, but 12 for country, because they want to put their best players on the pitch.

I could quite easily see a backline of: Ford, Nowell, Tuilagi, Slade, Joseph, Watson at some point in the future.
bring in a guy like Daly at fb, and you would have a team with pretty interchangeable roles at 1st/2nd receiver, you could also take liberties with the bench- not having to pick an extra fly half with Slade and carrying an extra forward or 2 wingers etc.

 

[Tony Manx]

I generally take sports journalism with a pinch of salt tbh. Interviews are more dictated by the interviewer than the interviewee in sports. Coaches say their bit to keep up PR responsibilities and then get on with their main jobs. Coaches are nearly always intentionally vague, so as not to give anything internal away. If Lancaster has talked about Burgess more often than other players, it will probably be because interviewers ask after him. Lancaster is full of praise for him, but who in his squad is he not full of praise for? If Lancaster talks about him as a WC possibility, that's not lying; Stephen Donald played a World Cup final because of injuries. I'm sure he'd say that anyone in his squad has a chance. Until a journo says that Lancaster is going to pick Burgess in his 31-man squad, I'm going to assume everything said so far is the normal PR fluff.

I'll make sure to eat my words if I'm wrong about this

Agreed as being entirely sensible and correct!

 

[Peat]

The reason why everyone wants Slade to make the move to centre is because Ford looks like he could become a really really special player, with Farrell as a more than able deputy- both of whom are more or less Slades' age. Why waste a talent like that on the bench/not even in squad until maybe one day he surpasses Ford (will it ever happen?) when he could make the 12 (13 maybe) spot his own, which is a position in which there is, and for the foreseeable future will be, sparse pickings in terms of actual talent.

Imo, he has looked better at 13 than at 10 for Chiefs (lots of variables involved, ok), the wabblies have done fairly similar things with Toomua, Lealliafano etc., who often play 10 for club, but 12 for country, because they want to put their best players on the pitch.

I could quite easily see a backline of: Ford, Nowell, Tuilagi, Slade, Joseph, Watson at some point in the future.
bring in a guy like Daly at fb, and you would have a team with pretty interchangeable roles at 1st/2nd receiver, you could also take liberties with the bench- not having to pick an extra fly half with Slade and carrying an extra forward or 2 wingers etc.

I don't think Farrell is a particularly able deputy and I am skeptical about Ford's defensive ability. I don't think our fly-half options are at all sorted and would like to see Slade take a serious crack at the position. I think he's genuinely starter material. If he didn't make the starting line up though, I would be delighted if we had a talent like Slade on the bench at fly-half. That's part of a strong bench. Strong benches make for strong finishes, strong finishes makes for victories.

Which is not to say he couldn't play some games in the centres. What he can do there is a bit 'wait and see', but he's obviously got huge potential. But I don't want him to nail down a slot there and I don't think this England management really have it in mind. I don't think they want to put Joseph on the wing as a long term thing, as they value fielding and kicking highly, and I don't think they want a centre partnership of Slade and Joseph as that's not physical enough. Which isn't an unreasonable point to my mind. England might be short of talent in the centres, but the shortfall comes in terms of physical units. Elusive runners, we're doing a-ok on. If we want a playmaking 12, then yeah there's an obvious Slade-shaped hole, but do we when we consider what we've got?

Tbh, anyone who could be an international fly-half, I'd rather they tried to crack that first. Switching from fly-half to centre is relatively easy if you have the physique. Switching from centre to fly-half is simply a non-goer; you've either learned to manage a game or you haven't.

Maybe I'm mad, but if there's one English player I could stick in the centres tomorrow, it would be Jack Clifford. Or maybe James Chisholm. You get my point in any case...

 

[goodNumber10]

As would I - I don't understand why everyone is so focused on moving him to the centre.

Because we badly need a good 12 with an all court game.

More than a 10. Slade is unlikely to oust the two F's.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

What has happened to the last 4 or 5 England under 20s 12s? I know Farrell was one of them at some point but do we have any young players who are physical, play maker and a good kicking game around?