[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[ZeroTwo]

Yeah, just for me with England having SO many loose forwards around who are all international quality I'm a little underwhelmed that none of them are complete players. Lots are still young though.

 

[goodNumber10]

Yeah, just for me with England having SO many loose forwards around who are all international quality I'm a little underwhelmed that none of them are complete players. Lots are still young though.

The curse of the 6.5.

 

[ZeroTwo]

The curse of the 6.5.

6.5 pints to believe that England stand a chance in the WC?!

Ah just kidding. Think they're top 2 seeds for me. You see a bolter in the squad announced?

 

[TheSaffycen]

France - Picamoles
Ireland - O'Brien
Wales - Faletau
NZ- Read
Australia - Higginbotham
South Africa- Vermuelen

I'd take most of them over Billy Vunipola. Still can't fathom the lack of Ewers in the squad. Anyone else have a terrible fear that Wood might end up at number 8?

Really ? You would take Higginbotham, a player who is a discipline issue. Faletau is a very good player, but Vunipola offers better defence and stronger carrying, Picamoles on form yeah I would have him in the side but Vunipola on form is bloody hard to go against.

 

[ZeroTwo]

Really ? You would take Higginbotham, a player who is a discipline issue. Faletau is a very good player, but Vunipola offers better defence and stronger carrying, Picamoles on form yeah I would have him in the side but Vunipola on form is bloody hard to go against.

I would. I rate Billy as a 22 year old player but I think he makes the wrong choice a lot. Running into bad contact, static receiving of the ball.

I think Faletau can be a game changer. Same for Higginbotham and Picamoles. They also play smart, picking their contacts or else receiving the ball close to the ruck if their to be hit by both flankers so ground isn't lost.

Give him 3 years playing at the level he's at and Billy will be sublime. I just don't think he's as good as Morgan yet.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I would. I rate Billy as a 22 year old player but I think he makes the wrong choice a lot. Running into bad contact, static receiving of the ball.

I think Faletau can be a game changer. Same for Higginbotham and Picamoles. They also play smart, picking their contacts or else receiving the ball close to the ruck if their to be hit by both flankers so ground isn't lost.

Give him 3 years playing at the level he's at and Billy will be sublime. I just don't think he's as good as Morgan yet.

Agreed but I rate Morgan extremely highly.

 

[chippieolamus]

Personally I would take Morgan or Billy over any 8 in the world bar Read, Parisse and Vermuelen (I may be forgetting some though). Both are great options. In the form BV is in I prefer him at the moment, if only for his improvement as a breakdown threat.

 

[Maverick1987]

Watching a few old England games.

Ben Morgan is twice the player Billy Vunipola is in my opinion. Even as a Saracens man. Billy is good but often takes the ball far too static so gets caught behind the gainline and has to use power to make up for it. Fine at club level, not at international. How's Morgan been for club this season?

You're looking too far back in my opinion . Billy V was our best player last 6N his workrate was phenomenal, his ball carrying and getting over the ball was top notch . No arguments for me Billy V is the incumbent at the moment . A shame for Morgan because he's lost his place through injury but that's the nature of the beast unfortunately

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Page 69...

Personally I preferred Morgan to BV, he was able to hang back and return kicks by running them. With that time to build up a head of steam, he could do enough to allow support to arrive or create opportunities for a winger or FB to support him. Don't remember seeing BV do that.

I'd trust Morgan more as a support runner too, I still feel BV is too much of a blunt bludgeoning instrument, although he has improved.

 

[nickdnz]

Billy V has been in my mind, the best performing player for England over the last year...

I swear if you sneeze in England, you risk losing your spot..

 

[Tony Manx]

Billy V has been in my mind, the best performing player for England over the last year...

I swear if you sneeze in England, you risk losing your spot..

My happerth is that Billy was so much improved last season (and impressed me really for the first time). Based on that, he should be starter unless Morgan can really show that he has fully recovered and is back at top form! Having said that, not too shabby having two players of their stature for that one position!!

 

[91jmay]

Would only take Read and Vermulen over BV as well.

 

[Peat]

Feel people might be overrating our 8s a little. They've shown big talent it's true, but so have many 8s, and if we wouldn't take their 8s above ours, I think the same is true vice-versa.

Neither Vunipola or Morgan have shown consistency or an all-round game. Vunipola has been learning and still has the feel of a blunt instrument; he's shown he's more on occasion, but most games he's basically playing like an incredibly mobile prop that doesn't have to scrummage. Morgan has been impeded by injury and while he's upped his work rate, he's not much more than a shirt filler the moment the ball's not in his hands/could be in his hands shortly. Obviously, most 8s lack all-round games, but it's a horses for courses thing.

Which is why I think most of us prefer Morgan. He's the horse when you want your 8 to really stick it to them ball in hand, which is a big thing in a team that lacks outstanding carrying threats. Vunipola's strengths are more in keeping with the rest of the team.

It is at least a good choice to be making, unlike, well, just about every other position...

 

[Raggs]

Billy is getting massively under-rated. He was the 2nd highest tackler in all the 6N, joint with Jonny Gray and just 3 behind Robshaw. I'd bet he was one of the top carriers too. His over the ball game is getting better and better too, 3 turnovers I think it was in the AP semi-final. He's picking his moments to hit rucks far more intelligently and makes a mess of them, I remember a great one he forced against SA.

He doesn't hang back like Morgan because we don't use him that way, he stays in the line and makes an absolute ton of tackles. Same with Picamoles, Picamoles picks up a ton of big carries because he runs at centres or wingers whilst seagulling. Billy V is pretty much one of a kind, he can take that static, backfoot ball, one out from the ruck, charge into 3 forwards and still generate front foot ball. Sure we could send him against the midfield (as he was used more at Wasps) but it would mean he's no longer providing that one of a kind service so close to the breakdown. Morgan tends to go through the midfield more (or hang back in defence. I seriously rate Morgan (at least in an England shirt), but he's a different player to Billy, and I'd rather have Billy for what he offers.

What is going to be fun is if we see BV and Morgan at 6 and 8 as Lancaster has suggested, that will give us big power runners close to the breakdown and a bit further out (Ewers and Waldrom basically), one to Billy V, front foot ball quickly out two to a charging Morgan, then 3rd phase against a hopefully retreating defence. Replace Morgan with Hughes next year and that's the lineout presence too (assuming Hughes makes the step up).

Ewers is basically in the mould of Billy V for me, little use in the lineout, massive carrier even in the heaviest traffic, but until Ewers is better than Billy V, or Billy V moves to 6 (changing what we want from our 6), I don't see him getting a look in.

 

[ZeroTwo]

Billy V has been in my mind, the best performing player for England over the last year...

I swear if you sneeze in England, you risk losing your spot..

I've actually never really valued him as much as others. I think he'll grow into one of the top players in the world but currently agree with @Peat. I think both England and Billy need to be a little smarter.

He was decent in the loss to the Irish this season but in my opinion that was the only time he's been tested as an 8 under pressure. Plenty of strong performances from the pack going forward (of which he contributes from his colossal frame) should make it easy for a blunt impact player to make ground. If England go up against a blitz defence like S.A or the organisation of NZ does anyone back him to have the same impact?

Maybe him being that first receiver close to the ruck has limited his impact with big carries as suggested, but you still see some players making ground. Billy will often bounce the first tackler but then will have lost momentum and go down under the next. Very eye catching but not always useful.

However as mentioned his turnover work has been phenomenal. Both Vunipola brothers for Saracens have been over rucks all season and they're very hard to move.

If only Morgan and Billy could have a baby and combine their two different 8 styles. Maybe England should take some lessons from Scotland on project players....

- - - Updated - - -

Oh and in that Ireland game, in case any one forgot, here are the stats for England:

Ball Carries -

18 Alex Goode
14 Billy Vunipola
13 Jack Nowell

Metres Made -

136 Alex Goode
79 Billy Vunipola
73 Jack Nowell

 

[Tony Manx]

Statistics, statistics, statistics! Do they tell the real story.....depends who reads them and what you want them to tell you!

 

[ZeroTwo]

Statistics, statistics, statistics! Do they tell the real story.....depends who reads them and what you want them to tell you!

Yeah but he was one of the few players who stood up that match for England. Just in case anyone was forgetting!

 

[Tony Manx]

Yeah but he was one of the few players who stood up that match for England. Just in case anyone was forgetting!

In this case, not sure who the "he" is? If it is Billy, I agree and the fact that Goode was ahead in the stats does not alter that to my mind?

 

[91jmay]

Goode was great against Ireland, although most on here will pretend he wasn't.

I am not sure I like Vunipola/Morgan both starting, means we have an average player coming off bench at 8 then (Haskell/Easter/Wood).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Goode did one good thing against Ireland, which was getting out of our in goal/up to the 22.



Binny and Benny are both great players, and I'm not particularly fussed who starts as they'll both be in the 23. They'll probably finish the tournament on very similar minute counts.