[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[j'nuh]

Surprised by people expecting a few changes. There are some players that Lancaster has invested far too much time in to drop at this stage. He said he wanted most of his squad in place last Autumn. Losing Hartley and Tuilagi doesn't help Lancaster be bolder either. I can see a couple of bolters, but not guys like Itoje/Burgess. They are too raw to be given a chance right now. (I suspect Lancaster is more testing the waters for after the WC with them.) The main bolters I can see are Slade and LCD, who can profit from the losses of Hartley and Tuilagi.

My guess:

Props: Marler, Vunipola, Cole, Wilson, Corbisiero

Hookers: Youngs, Webber, LCD

Locks: Launchbury, Lawes, Parling

Back row: Robshaw, Wood, Vunipola, Morgan, Haskell/Easter

Scrum-halves: Youngs, Care, Wigglesworth

Fly-halves: Ford, Farrell

Centres: Barritt, Joseph, Burrell, Slade(?)

Back three: Nowell, Watson, May, Brown, Goode

 

[TRF_Olyy]

His off-field influence won't be that of someone who has 2 world cups behind him (Easter) or has been known to raise moral (Haskell). He is a league convert who still struggles with a lot of game reading in Union still. I get where you're coming from, but if you are picking on that basis then he wouldn't necessarily make it.

While his experience in Union is minimal, he has bags of big game experience in League including a World Cup and winning the NRL. He's also, by all accounts, well liked and well respected.

I don't think I'd pick him in the RWC side, he's probably 6 months shy of being ready IMO - however if they were to choose him, I don't think it'd be a disaster, especially when you consider Haskell's yo-yo-ing form and discipline problems.
Would be a sh***er for Ewers, though, who (despite the talk of Burgess as a "hybrid" centre/backrow) is up against Burgess in a straight shootout as a non-jumping bruiser of a 6.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

My view

Props: Joe Marler, Mako Vunipola, Dan Cole, Kieran Brookes, Alex Corbisiero - I think Brookes or Corbs may lose their place to Wilson

Hookers: Tom Youngs, Jamie George, Luke Cowan-Dickie

Locks: Joe Launchbury, Maro Itoje, Courtney Lawes, David Attwood/Geoff Parling (Another tough call) - For me it would be Parling over Attwood, yet I fear Itoje could lose out on his chance and both will be in the squad

Backrow: Ben Morgan, Billy Vunipola, Sam Burgess, James Haskell, Chris Robshaw - It could be too soon for Burgess and we may see Itoje slot in here instead

Scrum Half: Ben Youngs, Danny Care, Richard Wigglesworth

Fly Half: George Ford, Owen Farrell

Centres: Brad Barritt, Henry Slade, Jonathan Joseph, Luther Burrell I think Elliot Daly will be in for Burrell, he is in the exact mould of JJ and will fit in easier, he also provides options elsewhere on the pitch

Wings: Anthony Watson, Jack Nowell, Jonny May/Marland Yarde (still not sure on this one) Yarde should make it after his performance against the Baabaas

Fullbacks: Mike Brown, Danny Cipriani

I also want to believe Eastmond is still in with a chance, and as I said above it may be too early for Slade in this World Cup, but whatever happens we will have strength in depth across the pitch.

 

[ZeroTwo]

While his experience in Union is minimal, he has bags of big game experience in League including a World Cup and winning the NRL. He's also, by all accounts, well liked and well respected.

I understand that. But in terms of being in the England circuit, he's still very new. Lots of players have proven their worth and have come leaders, it'd be hard for Sam Burgess to step up in the huddle in the same way one of those guys would. Honestly all guesswork, it's just how I'd feel if I'd done what he's done. I just think saying he'd be a big figure in the behind the scenes after such a short period of time in the game, let alone the set up?

Anyway, I think England have very little to worry about in flankers. I wouldn't pick him as it's such a risk that he'll improve exponentially and not hit a block (Andy Farrell was good for his first six months in union, then faded).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I understand that. But in terms of being in the England circuit, he's still very new. Lots of players have proven their worth and have come leaders, it'd be hard for Sam Burgess to step up in the huddle in the same way one of those guys would.

Ah, I disagree with that. Being motivational/a leader doesn't necessarily mean you're the best on the pitch - Hooper and Borthwick wouldn't have captained half has long (/at all) if that were the case.
I'm only going off of what they said on BT Sport (and from the short clips they show pre-game) but Burgess looks VERY vocal, and is always chirping away in the huddle and in the changing room. Think it's just part of who he is, regardless of whether he's brand new to the sport or not.
Still, this is all besides the point as we should be comparing his form right now (or in 3 months) to his rivals, rather than how motivational he is pre-game :lol:

 

[goodNumber10]

yeah agree on Burgess being a leader, it's one of the first things Lancaster focused on when he moved over - "the guys a leader".

You don't have to be technically brilliant to lead, the captain takes the technical decisions, but the guy who's in the middle of it all and will inspire you by showing you the lengths he's willing to go to to help you get the win? That's what Burgess brings.

 

[ZeroTwo]

Ah, I disagree with that. Being motivational/a leader doesn't necessarily mean you're the best on the pitch - Hooper and Borthwick wouldn't have captained half has long (/at all) if that were the case.
I'm only going off of what they said on BT Sport (and from the short clips they show pre-game) but Burgess looks VERY vocal, and is always chirping away in the huddle and in the changing room. Think it's just part of who he is, regardless of whether he's brand new to the sport or not.
Still, this is all besides the point as we should be comparing his form right now (or in 3 months) to his rivals, rather than how motivational he is pre-game :lol:

So does Ashton to be fair....

I get the point being made and I also get he likes to lead from the front on the pitch. I just think if you're going for a leader you've got Robshaw, Hask (Wasps captain), Easter (2 WCs, including one final), Marler (Harlequins captain), Ben Youngs (Leicester captain), Ed Slater (Captained England and Leicester). I don't think leadership is missing and if I was to look to someone, maybe one of the people listed above would be first call?

More important is how they're playing though, as you said!

 

[Peat]

I think England make too many daft decisions in pressure situations for a supposedly well led side, with some of the names mentioned above being highly culpable in this regard. I think there is an issue and think the team does need a boost in this area.

But I'm not sure Burgess is that man. I think Lancaster is dearly hoping he will be, but I can't see it happening in time.

I also think we are notably in need of an upgrade at blindside but again, I can't see Burgess being that man in time, particularly when Lancaster's still thinking of him as a centre.

 

[goodNumber10]

I think England make too many daft decisions in pressure situations for a supposedly well led side, with some of the names mentioned above being highly culpable in this regard. I think there is an issue and think the team does need a boost in this area.

But I'm not sure Burgess is that man. I think Lancaster is dearly hoping he will be, but I can't see it happening in time.

I also think we are notably in need of an upgrade at blindside but again, I can't see Burgess being that man in time, particularly when Lancaster's still thinking of him as a centre.

don't disagree with any of that

 

[ZeroTwo]

Mmmm. Possibly. It's hard to know what's responsible. Robshaw learnt his lesson from those SH games where his decision making was so widely questioned but you're right about some being dodgy.

However England has shown the ability to take a knock or two but to have belief in their game plan (the loss to France last year sticks in the memory). Think that comes from faith in the system and in the leadership.

You may well be right. I'm not sure who can help in flanker and leadership. Would love Itoje to fill both holes. Although I wouldn't sit down for a week

 

[Wendigo7]

Very quick 02.

Telegraph reporting Rokodoguni will take the place of Strettle now he's confirmed he's offski to France.

Don't think it changes much but it's pleasing roko is getting a chance at least.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Very quick 02.

Telegraph reporting Rokodoguni will take the place of Strettle now he's confirmed he's offski to France.

Don't think it changes much but it's pleasing roko is getting a chance at least.

That would seem like an odd decision to me.

Here's the link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...ni-poised-for-England-World-Cup-lifeline.html

 

[ratsapprentice]

Take that as read - he's in.

 

[Peat]

I think the heart to keep on fighting points to a team with good leadership, but great leadership is shown by teams that finish off games and avoid daft situations, and I am done with praising 'good' when it comes to England as 'great' is what we need.

It's about the standards set by the core, not just one man, and there's many leaders out there who wilt if made the very main man but provide big inspiration as lieutenants. I don't think Robshaw is an amazing captain, but I don't think he's particularly well served by those around him, and I also question the coaching staff as well. It's not just about personality, it's about experience - both in the sense that experience gives leaders wisdom, and experience gives people belief in their leaders. Which is a point in Burgess' favour - he has more "Been there, done that" iconic status than anyone else in the squad. The only problem is its in the wrong code.

I'm not sure who can help either, which is why I'm pretty despondent about England's chances. If Itoje is the man for that right now, that would be incredibly precocious. I haven't watched too much AP rugby but, for all he's a born natural, I'm not optimistic. Clearly he's a guy to pin your hopes to for the future, but so many England potentials have come to nothing - point in case, in another reality, Tom Rees didn't get wrecked and fulfilled his potential, and would be leading England into this World Cup as a veteran of 50-60 caps (if not more). But he's not.

Which, on a mild tangent, is a reason to think Jack Clifford may well be an important player down the line, for all there seems to be a logjam in front of him.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If Roko comes in for Strettle I'll be VERY happy!
He's looked a lot better at the tail end of the season than he did after first coming back from injury, and the few weeks rest he'll get now/pre/rehab he'll get in the England camp should hopefully get him back to his best - in which case he's arguably a first choicer (I'd have a fully fit Roko starting, anyway).

 

[ratsapprentice]

Apparently Cipriani's been arrested for drink driving... :mellow:

 

[Patchey]

I'm not sure who can help either, which is why I'm pretty despondent about England's chances. If Itoje is the man for that right now, that would be incredibly precocious. I haven't watched too much AP rugby but, for all he's a born natural, I'm not optimistic. Clearly he's a guy to pin your hopes to for the future, but so many England potentials have come to nothing - point in case, in another reality, Tom Rees didn't get wrecked and fulfilled his potential, and would be leading England into this World Cup as a veteran of 50-60 caps (if not more). But he's not.

Which, on a mild tangent, is a reason to think Jack Clifford may well be an important player down the line, for all there seems to be a logjam in front of him.

Two things:

A) Your point about Tom Rees is so spot on it almost hurts.

B) I'm going to dig out a post I made during the U20 Championships two years ago about how Clifford was going to be big for England one day and screenshot it next to this. Because now you're all coming round to him I can feel smug yeah?

Honestly, he is as class as Itoje IMO.

Edit------

Cips, why?

Seriously, what is it about big tournaments that seems to make our players go MENTAL!?

 

[j'nuh]

I think the heart to keep on fighting points to a team with good leadership, but great leadership is shown by teams that finish off games and avoid daft situations, and I am done with praising 'good' when it comes to England as 'great' is what we need.

It's about the standards set by the core, not just one man, and there's many leaders out there who wilt if made the very main man but provide big inspiration as lieutenants. I don't think Robshaw is an amazing captain, but I don't think he's particularly well served by those around him, and I also question the coaching staff as well. It's not just about personality, it's about experience - both in the sense that experience gives leaders wisdom, and experience gives people belief in their leaders. Which is a point in Burgess' favour - he has more "Been there, done that" iconic status than anyone else in the squad. The only problem is its in the wrong code.

I'm not sure who can help either, which is why I'm pretty despondent about England's chances. If Itoje is the man for that right now, that would be incredibly precocious. I haven't watched too much AP rugby but, for all he's a born natural, I'm not optimistic. Clearly he's a guy to pin your hopes to for the future, but so many England potentials have come to nothing - point in case, in another reality, Tom Rees didn't get wrecked and fulfilled his potential, and would be leading England into this World Cup as a veteran of 50-60 caps (if not more). But he's not.

Which, on a mild tangent, is a reason to think Jack Clifford may well be an important player down the line, for all there seems to be a logjam in front of him.

To be fair, I don't think anyone was under any illusion that we'd have a team full of leaders at this stage. We started this World Cup cycle with perhaps the most inexperienced side of any Tier One team. We'll go into this World Cup still as one of the most inexperienced sides. That said, all other nations are about to lose a batch of veterans in the next World Cup cycle. The experience (and leadership) gap will shorten dramatically.

Not to say that we don't have a chance in this World Cup without this leadership base. Home advantage makes us the favourite against most of the Tier One teams. Only a form New Zealand might be a step too far, but on the other hand, if they play anything like they did in the 2011 final...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Apparently Cipriani's been arrested for drink driving... :mellow:

I'm really hoping it's just the Sun leaping to conclusions. He was in a crash at 5 am and taken in for questioning - fingers crossed it's just standard procedure, rather than him having been bladdered

 

[Peat]

Probably better to wait for it to actually happen Patchey.

As for Cips... wellp. So much for project discipline. Mindyou, maybe if he bans Cips from the World Cup as well, maybe the next generation will get the hint. I could leave with Ford/Fazlet/Slade I guess.