[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

Patchey · Apr 6, 2015

So the England 6N threat is several thousand pages long and a bit unweildy. Thought I'd start a new discussion here for all the pre-RWC speculation that has already started.

After the 6N and given the selection patterns over the last few seasons I reckon the following are 'nailed on' in the squad if fit:

Hookers: Hartley, Youngs.
Props: Cole, Marler, Vunnipola, Corbisiero, Brookes.
Second Rows: Lawes, Launchbury, Parling.
Back Rows: Robshaw, Wood, Vunnipola, Morgan.
Scrum Halves: Youngs, Wigglesworth.
Fly Halves: Ford, Farrell.
Centres: Burrell, Joseph, Tuilagi.
Wings: Nowell, Watson.
Fullbacks: Brown, Goode.

That leaves six places for the final squad. Realistically I think May/Yarde, Twelvetrees and Care/Simpson are almost certain to be there. I wouldn't be surprised to see Cipriani miss out, with Goode and 36 'covering' fly-half.

That leaves four more places. Another hooker at least? And maybe a prop (as discussed in the England thread, ideally you'd have six props even if the World Cup squad limit doesn't reflect the larger match day squads than last time). Easter as someone who covers back row and lock? In the backs, a utility players and another winger/fullback?

I think Itoje, Slade and Simpson are the only real bolters with a chance. Simpson probably has the best as the moment as Care is massively out of favour. The other two need a really strong end of season.

Finally, just for a laugh, I rewatched the England v France QF from 2011 the other day. Painful stuff. But it did remind me that the last time England played a game in the Rugby World Cup, our match day squad was:

How times change eh?

P

Peat

International

Apr 6, 2015

#2

Wilson will go ahead of Brookes if fit.

Patchey

First XV

Apr 6, 2015

#3

Peat said:
Wilson will go ahead of Brookes if fit.

Derp. Yes of course.

TheSaffycen

First XV

TRF Legend

Apr 6, 2015

#4

Looking at your nailed on guys I'm surprised you haven't put Barritt in there. The guy is clearly liked and is 99% nailed on to be in the squad. Then again would twelvetrees be preferred as he can cover 10/12/13 ? Useful in a world cup squad. Same with May being able to cover 13/11/14/15 so I think he will be called in. Then a lock come back row looking at the squad and Saxons the only players I can think of are Garvey /Itoje /Easter /Kruis/ Launchbury. Now Launchbury is going no matter what. Garvey and Itoje I think won't be going, unless Maro starts nearly every game for sarries as he is just too young. So out of Kruis and Easter it all depends on if we won't ball carrying or workrate. So probably Kruis though Easter looked good in the 6 nations.

C

chippieolamus

Bench Player

Apr 6, 2015

#5

Yeah Barritt is more nailed on than Burrell, and Wilson over Brookes. Launch and Lawes can cover 6 in an emergency, so I would expect the 4th lock to be Attwood not Easter.

P

Peat

International

Apr 6, 2015

#6

The issue with Easter is he doesn't really cover flanker. Now, if one of Bill or Ben goes down, then an 8/lock is a fantastic resource, but elsewise, not so much, cos 3 8s with limited experience of flanker duties be whack.

Patchey

First XV

Apr 6, 2015

#7

TheSaffycen said:
Looking at your nailed on guys I'm surprised you haven't put Barritt in there. The guy is clearly liked and is 99% nailed on to be in the squad. Then again would twelvetrees be preferred as he can cover 10/12/13 ? Useful in a world cup squad. Same with May being able to cover 13/11/14/15 so I think he will be called in. Then a lock come back row looking at the squad and Saxons the only players I can think of are Garvey /Itoje /Easter /Kruis/ Launchbury. Now Launchbury is going no matter what. Garvey and Itoje I think won't be going, unless Maro starts nearly every game for sarries as he is just too young. So out of Kruis and Easter it all depends on if we won't ball carrying or workrate. So probably Kruis though Easter looked good in the 6 nations.

I'd say 36 over Barritt because of his ability to cover. I can't see anything to convince me that Cips will be in the squad. And therefore we'll be wanting a couple of players who can cover fly-half, especially in pool games against 'lesser' opposition.

You're probably right about Itoje. Until Manu four years ago, he isn't started regularly yet.

Re Easter, his non covering of 6/7 is an issue. I think he might still edge it over Kruis. This is purely based on the fact that he seem to have shaken off the attitude issues that England didn't like?

Of course, there is one bit bolter I haven't mentioned yet...

W

Wendigo7

Bench Player

Apr 6, 2015

#8

Cipriani could get picked as a Utility back. He's lined up in the same role Goode has lined up. I reckon he will be put down as a Fullback.

Goode to miss out, Twelvetrees to cover the 10/12/13 role if needed. Slade might also feature but those 2 might be in a straight shoot out.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Itoje slip in if he continues his good form.

Barritt over Burrell as a shoe in also.

Bada-Bing!

Hall of Fame

TRF Legend

Apr 6, 2015

#9

Subject to injury I expect the final England 31 will look like this:

Props: Corbs, Marler, Vunipola, Wilson and Cole

Hooker Hartley, Youngs, Webber

Locks Launchbury, Lawes, Parling, Attwood

Back row Robshaw, Wood, Haskell, Vunipola, Morgan

SHs Youngs, Wigglesworth, Care

FHs Ford, Farrell

Centres Barritt, Joseph, Tuilagi and Twelvetrees.

Wings Watson, Nowell and ????? (don't know: between Ashton, May, Rokoduguni, Wade, Yarde)

Full backs Brown and Goode.

Personally, I would like to see Steffon Armitage in the final squad and Slade as an option at 12. But the arguments of the former have been gone through too many times. We will see, Armitage at best would be a sub in the 23.

Patchey

First XV

Apr 6, 2015

#10

When Abendanon was interview post-match on Saturday, reference was made to the coaches being allowed to pick players from overseas club in the World Cup squad. That's the first time I've seen that mentioned as an actual fact. Does anyone know if selecting guys from France is actually an option?

Wendigo7 said:
Cipriani could get picked as a Utility back. He's lined up in the same role Goode has lined up. I reckon he will be put down as a Fullback.

Barritt over Burrell as a shoe in also.

Cips as a fullback would be bizarre but not unthinkable.

I think you're underestimating how much the coaches love Burrell. He'll make the squad. If Barritt does come in it'll be for 36.

TRF_Olyy

English Arrogance

Staff member

TRF Legend

TRF Supporter

Apr 6, 2015

#11

First I've heard of it, too.
I can't see Lancaster doing it, to be honest.

W

Wendigo7

Bench Player

Apr 6, 2015

#12

Kvesic got MOM on Friday against albeit limited opposition.

I wish they would take a look at him for once.

Don't Skip Leg Day

International

TRF Legend

Apr 6, 2015

#13

I just can't see the point in taking manu as he wont have played at all before the World Cup. With JJs form as well manu isn't likely to be tried in the warm up games where we really need to settle on a centre partnership.

I think 12trees, JJ, burrell and barritt

Burrell and barritt cover 12 and 12trees can cover 10.

Patchey

First XV

Apr 6, 2015

#14

TRF_Olyy said:
First I've heard of it, too.
I can't see Lancaster doing it, to be honest.

Yeah, it would be very odd. Just wondering if it does at least give the option for Armitage to return. I wouldn't advocate him coming in to the squad, but hey ho.

living sacrifice said:
I just can't see the point in taking manu as he wont have played at all before the World Cup. With JJs form as well manu isn't likely to be tried in the warm up games where we really need to settle on a centre partnership.

I think 12trees, JJ, burrell and barritt

Burrell and barritt cover 12 and 12trees can cover 10.

Because he is, of with BB, our most experienced centre/back outside of nine and one of only two likely starters in the backs to have played in a Worls Cup before?

He also, hopefully, still has the potential to be a real game changer.

On those points, he probably deserves a spot in the squad. If he's allowed to waltz straight back into the starting 23 that would be a bit if a joke though. Ideally Leicester don't have the top four and be maybe gets a run out against the BaBaas? Although he may not be for by then.

LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)

G.O.A.T

TRF Legend

Apr 6, 2015

#15

living sacrifice said:
I just can't see the point in taking manu as he wont have played at all before the World Cup. With JJs form as well manu isn't likely to be tried in the warm up games where we really need to settle on a centre partnership.

I think 12trees, JJ, burrell and barritt

Burrell and barritt cover 12 and 12trees can cover 10.

Maybe because Burrell has been the worse player for England in the six nations.

Patchey

First XV

Apr 6, 2015

#16

Re caps in the back line (I'm bored and on a train), here are some stats from Wikipedia:

Danny Care: 50 caps

Ben Youngs: 48 caps

Owen Farrell: 29 caps (and 290 points, so a 10pt per game average!)

Manu Tuilagi: 25 caps

Brad Barritt: 22 caps

Care I unlikely to be in a first choice 23 so realistically, Manu is one of our most experienced backs.

He's also one of only (I think) eight guys in the current set up (nine if you count Easter) to have played at a World Cup before.

I think Haskell is the only current England player to have won a Heineken Cup. Obviously some of the Saints and Sarries lads have been finalists.

Not really sure what point I'm trying to make, other than it is quite easy to forget how transitional the current squad still is. Can't imagine we've ever gone into a RWC with so few players having player in one before?