England EPS 2017/18 edition.

[Scotty]

Who are you picking at 8 against Argentina if Simmonds is 20? The cupboard looks pretty bare to me.

Hughes obv as people have said.

But your other point is not wrong, the cupboards are bare, i mean clifford, harrison, Mercer, simmonds. All play 8 but non of them have the weight/carrying ability of billy/hughes. Which is bad when you think we have 12 teams. Alot seem to have foreign or past it No.8s

Cant wait to see simmonds in an england shirt see what he can do. He's just not an answer at 8. Underhill hughes simmonds for last 20. Also looking fwd to seeing Genge aswell.

 

[RedruthRFC]

But your other point is not wrong, the cupboards are bare, i mean clifford, harrison, Mercer, simmonds. All play 8 but non of them have the weight/carrying ability of billy/hughes. Which is bad when you think we have 12 teams. Alot seem to have foreign or past it No.8s

Agreed, when I thought that Hughes was out, it was worrying to consider the pecking order. Outside Hughes and Vunipola, we have players who have failed to perform on the international stage. Come back to form Ben Morgan, all is forgiven!

 

[MarkyH]

We seem to be worrying about a lack of depth at 8. But I see at least 4 choices I'm excited by, maybe 5. If we have 4/5 players in each position before we get to imports then I'm more than happy, those imports will hopefully improve the ability of the players coming through...

I also won't judge a player by his size and weight, yes we want to get over the gain-line but I'm happy for Simmonds to do it in wider channels with his pace+bulk the same way I'm happy for Billy to do it in closer play with his awesome ball carrying skills. I honestly think England have enough in the front 8 to cater for all type of players. We can get Mako or Genge to carry tight, even Underhill to hit hard then offload to a rampaging Simmonds.. We have options to run, to counter attack and to go wide. We are looking good!

Yes, I'm optimistic but this is the most exciting England team in 14 years And has a real pathway from the U20s into the 1st team...

 

[Which Tyler]

Hughes obv as people have said.

But your other point is not wrong, the cupboards are bare, i mean clifford, harrison, Mercer, simmonds. All play 8 but non of them have the weight/carrying ability of billy/hughes. Which is bad when you think we have 12 teams. Alot seem to have foreign or past it No.8s

Cant wait to see simmonds in an england shirt see what he can do. He's just not an answer at 8. Underhill hughes simmonds for last 20. Also looking fwd to seeing Genge aswell.

Since when does a player need to have the weight/carrying ability of Billy/Hughes to be considered an 8?
I guess the following are terrible role models, because you just can't be a successful #8 if you weight less than 120 kg


Zach Mercer: 190cm; 105 kg (BMI: 29.09)
Sam Simmonds: 184cm; 103kg (BMI: 30.42)

Louis Picamoles: 192cm; 116kg (BMI: 31.47)
Sergio Parisse: 196cm; 112kg (BMI: 29.15)
Kieran Read: 193cm; 110kg (BMI: 29.53)
Jamie Heaslip: 192cm; 110kg (BMI: 29.84)
Taupe Faletau: 189cm; 110kg (BMI: 30.79)
David Pocock: 183cm; 103kg (BMI: 30.76)

Nathan Hughes: 196cm; 125kg (BMI: 32.54)
Billy Vunipola: 188cm; 130kg (BMI: 36.78)


IMO Simmonds is more-or-less as bulky as he can go, Mercer's probably got another 4-8 kg before stressing his frame (based on eye-balling their physiques).

If anything compiling this list makes me wonder which teams that aren't England have a #8 in the Billy/Hughes mold (I'd also argue that Hughes isn't in the Billy mold either - even in terms of size/power)

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Agreed, when I thought that Hughes was out, it was worrying to consider the pecking order. Outside Hughes and Vunipola, we have players who have failed to perform on the international stage. Come back to form Ben Morgan, all is forgiven!

Funny enough Morgans form for England has usually been much better than for Glos...

 

[Scotty]

Since when does a player need to have the weight/carrying ability of Billy/Hughes to be considered an 8?
I guess the following are terrible role models, because you just can't be a successful #8 if you weight less than 120 kg


Zach Mercer: 190cm; 105 kg (BMI: 29.09)
Sam Simmonds: 184cm; 103kg (BMI: 30.42)

Sergio Parisse: 196cm; 112kg (BMI: 29.2)
Louis Picamoles: 192cm; 116kg (BMI: 31.47)
Kieran Read: 193cm; 110kg (BMI: 29.53)
Jamie Heaslip: 192cm; 110kg (BMI: 29.84)
Taupe Faletau: 189cm; 110kg (BMI: 30.79)
David Pocock: 183cm; 103kg (BMI: 30.76)


IMO Simmonds is more-or-less as bulky as he can go, Mercer's probably got another 4-8 kg before stressing his frame (based on eye-balling their physiques).

Neither is going to challenge the 125+kg of Hughes and Billy, neither should try. Mercer is in the same team as Faletau, with a similar height, a frame easily capable of a similar strength, and a pretty similar "natural" style. Not a bad player to emulate IMO.

If anything compiling this list makes me wonder which teams that aren't England have a #8 in the Billy/Hughes mold (I'd also argue that Hughes isn't in the Billy mold either - even in terms of size/power)

Your not wrong about size and i do get your point there has been some great 8s for many dofferent reasons but this england team works with a powerful no8. I would like to see better carriers such as simmonds clifford mercer on the flanks as the more athletic carriers.

In recent years we have had a big 8 say billy, hughes and even morgan. But we had the likes of robshaw and hask on the flanks who didnt offer a real threat going forward.

This england team is an exciting one for me, younger guys like Mercer and simmonds fighting for a place as well as underhill. The curry twins in a few years. We have power in the front row with genge sinks mako, and massive depth at lock.

Hooker? Geroge hartley LCD TT....

No 8, i see it as billy and hughes with players fighting to be cover. I really hope im wrong and mercer packs on a few more kgs and becomes a player like falatau but hes not there yet and id see him as a 6 that could cover 8 pretty well rather than an 8 for england.

 

[Which Tyler]

You mean 191cm; 116kg (BMI: 31.8) Ben Morgan?
Hell, fatty Waldron is 185cm; 114kg (BMI: 33.31) would be your best bet if you to go that route, and were still not getting close to Billy here.
Yes, this England team works with Billy at 8; but that's because we have Billy.
There is no necessity to have BillyJr at 8 when BillySnr is crocked... Actually, it's impossible, as even our biggest alternative isn't remotely as powerful as Billy.
Someone needs to play that hard carrying role, but there's no reason it has to be the 8

Billy is very much the exception, he is not the rule, for England, or for international rugby.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Since when does a player need to have the weight/carrying ability of Billy/Hughes to be considered an 8?
I guess the following are terrible role models, because you just can't be a successful #8 if you weight less than 120 kg


Zach Mercer: 190cm; 105 kg (BMI: 29.09)
Sam Simmonds: 184cm; 103kg (BMI: 30.42)

Louis Picamoles: 192cm; 116kg (BMI: 31.47)
Sergio Parisse: 196cm; 112kg (BMI: 29.15)
Kieran Read: 193cm; 110kg (BMI: 29.53)
Jamie Heaslip: 192cm; 110kg (BMI: 29.84)
Taupe Faletau: 189cm; 110kg (BMI: 30.79)
David Pocock: 183cm; 103kg (BMI: 30.76)

Nathan Hughes: 196cm; 125kg (BMI: 32.54)
Billy Vunipola: 188cm; 130kg (BMI: 36.78)


IMO Simmonds is more-or-less as bulky as he can go, Mercer's probably got another 4-8 kg before stressing his frame (based on eye-balling their physiques).

If anything compiling this list makes me wonder which teams that aren't England have a #8 in the Billy/Hughes mold (I'd also argue that Hughes isn't in the Billy mold either - even in terms of size/power)

It's not totally relevant but no way is Pocock only 103kg. He looks to be 112 at least.

 

[Hound]

6 locks...so some are covering back row. Or is it to give Lawes and Itoje a bit of a rest?

6 Robshaw
7 Underhill

Im still a jurys out on Ewells at the moment.

I'd say Itoje at 6...

 

[Hound]

It's not totally relevant but no way is Pocock only 103kg. He looks to be 112 at least.

He's also a pure 7 who we just happened to play at 8 both to make room for an unconventional 7 in Hooper, and for the backrow balance at the Brumbies where they also had Butler/Fardy/Smiler.

Pocock's more a 7 than Hooper and certainly more than Simmonds is.

That's one thing I'm curious about going into this week... seeing Simmonds in a 7 jersey, because he's seemed an out-and-out 8 to me so far. I haven't seen the breakdown game yet that people seem to make him out as the rounded 20 certainty that some say... I figure Armand is a more rounded option as a 6 who can (hell, has been) play 7 and can fill in ok at 8 if you have the hard ball runners around him (that I think you will have with a Genge off the bench... with either Simmonds or Itoje still out on the field) and his size makes for even more versatility at the lineout... which gien your second row stocks is one place I'd be looking to assert dominance.

The big question to me at this stage is "can Simmonds run on international level opposition" if he doesn't show he can make a 7 jersey fit as well this week.

Part of me suspects I'll be watching an 8 in a 7 jersey this week (although I know he's played openside before). But we'll wait and see.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

We have been looking for a proper 7, we have My Curry and Mr Underhill who appear as proper 7s. We should not be trying to shoehorn Robshaw, Armand or Simmonds into that role.

I think both Curry and Underhill have shown enough to own the 7 role for the world cup.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I question the need for a proper 7 anymore really, the laws just don't really suit them currently IMO.
Underhill and Curry works out either way because they can tackle for days and are very physical.

Jack Willis if he gets the chances could find himself up in England contention his game suits the current laws to a tee.

 

[ratsapprentice]

A proper 7 isn't just about jackaling, n00b.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

A proper 7 isn't just about jackaling, n00b.

Come at me bruv.

What else does a proper 7 bring? Link play is now a factor for all the back row now.

 

[curtbob7]

Where is Zach Mercer carrying this 105KG? He looks 90KG wet through!

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Where is Zach Mercer carrying this 105KG? He looks 90KG wet through!

He's clearly 90.5kg after dinner

 

[Scotty]

We have been looking for a proper 7, we have My Curry and Mr Underhill who appear as proper 7s. We should not be trying to shoehorn Robshaw, Armand or Simmonds into that role.

I think both Curry and Underhill have shown enough to own the 7 role for the world cup.

Honestly id rather see underhill nail down the 6 shirt, is decent over the ball but he puts in a good shift in defence every game for bath, high tackle count. That way we can have either currys or simmonds/mercer depending what you want. Nothinga wrong with a player like simmonds or mercer at 7 if you have someone like underhill 6.

Jack willis is a goid prospect for the future tbh

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

You mean 191cm; 116kg (BMI: 31.8) Ben Morgan?
Hell, fatty Waldron is 185cm; 114kg (BMI: 33.31) would be your best bet if you to go that route, and were still not getting close to Billy here.
Yes, this England team works with Billy at 8; but that's because we have Billy.
There is no necessity to have BillyJr at 8 when BillySnr is crocked... Actually, it's impossible, as even our biggest alternative isn't remotely as powerful as Billy.
Someone needs to play that hard carrying role, but there's no reason it has to be the 8

Billy is very much the exception, he is not the rule, for England, or for international rugby.

Very true. Removing Billy from the equation changes the dynamic of the back row and arguably the pack.

He's our go to guy and other teams know it. It's not easy to stop him, but they can plan for it. So, to take the heat off him and give options when he's not there we need other strong carriers. Genge is an obvious candidate.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Honestly id rather see underhill nail down the 6 shirt, is decent over the ball but he puts in a good shift in defence every game for bath, high tackle count. That way we can have either currys or simmonds/mercer depending what you want. Nothinga wrong with a player like simmonds or mercer at 7 if you have someone like underhill 6.

Jack willis is a goid prospect for the future tbh

Underhill at 6 means that one of Itoje, Kruis, Lawes and Launchbury miss out on the match day 23 and only two would be able to start. I'd say that all four are significantly better than Curry. I don't see the point in moving Underhill to 6 so that we can accommodate a worse player and significantly damage our set piece.

 

[BenJeffrey]

Underhill at 6 means that one of Itoje, Kruis, Lawes and Launchbury miss out on the match day 23 and only two would be able to start. I'd say that all four are significantly better than Curry. I don't see the point in moving Underhill to 6 so that we can accommodate a worse player and significantly damage our set piece.

As well as that, having both Curry and Underhill start makes me feel as if we have a huge imbalance in the backrow? Plus, they're both only around 6ft 1, so we'd want additional height at 6 for an extra jumping option.