England EPS 2016/17 season.

[BPM]

Has Billy prove he's an 80 min player? In the 3rd test Daly had to be put on at 8 because Billy had knackered himself. Whether he can manage playing 80 minutes and whether he should be playing 80 minutes give 2 very different answers.

I think people have written off Morgan as him and Binny are very similar players and ATM Binny is simply much better. And I can't see that changing, especially not to the extent that Binny is replaced. I can see Beaumont, Hughes, Clifford getting a shot as they offer very different things to Binny, but Morgan is more or less the same player. Just not as good.

Morgan's leg injury was a huge shame as before it I rated Morgan much more than Binny, but sadly he just doesn't seem able to recover from it.

Billy was clearly knackered in the third test of a hugely attritional series after almost 12 months of continual rugby, so I think we can cut him some slack.

In the 6N and the first two tests he was still putting in a shift late on.

I also don't think Morgan and Billy are actually that similar. Morgan has the size and ability to smash the ball up the park, but he's got great footwork for a big man and is a more elusive runner than Billy.

I agree that a combination of injuries and younger challengers have definitely put him in a tough spot to come back from, but he is only 27 and has a very similar test record to Billy and if he were to put together a good run of form, he'd be hard to ignore. Probably could do with a move from Gloucester though ...

Hughes might be great at test level, but there's a reasonable chance he might not be. I for one, suspect that he'll be ordinary.

Beaumont is an interesting one. He definitely offers something different and I think he has the rugby brain to excel at test level, but I guess time will tell.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Billy went off injured, didn't he?
He was getting a lot of medical attention, tried to battle on for a bit, then had to go

Injury was what eventually drove him off the field but he was dead on his feet long before that. Remember Toomua's try when he was just able to run right past Binny who just attempted to grab his shirt? He was knackered. He's clearly not an 80 minute man. That's not necessarily a criticism, it's potentially more a testament to how much work and carrying he gets through in a game. No one would have the fitness to last a full game carrying as often and as hard as he does.

 

[Peat]

Ach now. Yeah, of course its hard to make judgements on club games and the odd appearance in a white shirt. But that's what Eddie's got to make judgements on too. Who out there is really offering themselves as an alternative if Jones gets a downer on the occupant?

Jamie George is the real big name for me. He's doing everything he can with his club and everything he can in his sub appearances too. Obviously the door is pretty well barred at the moment but he's kicking it as hard as he can. I also think Mike Haley's advanced his case really well recently.

I ask this because I feel there's a lot of youngsters who haven't really taken their chance all that well this summer - Harrison, Clifford, Kvesic and Robson to an extent - and that makes Eddie's job on whether to advance them or not a lot easier. I also think it changes how indispensible guys are or not. Jones mightn't be about to drop Hartley, but I don't think he'll swear too loud if he gets injured.

As for Ben Morgan - I think the potential to come back into the picture is there. But I think for that to happen, he needs to hit prime England form every day for his club and add a defensive game to match.

 

[Raggs]

BV was injured, very clearly injured, struggled to go on for another 5 minutes or so, and then EJ pulled him off. I don't think any other 8 has proven a greater stamina level.

Interestingly, the injury that kept Hask out of the 3rd test wasn't new, interview on his facebook page he states he's been carrying the injury for months, broken bone in his foot.

Morgan isn't written off for me, but he rarely performs with Glaws, and isn't going to be able to point to his England performances since he's had a serious injury since then. He has to prove himself, and quite simply I don't think he's going to do that at Glaws. More importantly, he needs to prove himself at champions cup level I feel (I get the feeling Eddie places a lot of faith in the higher intensity of the euro games to show how people may cope at international).

I think BV isn't indispensable as such, I just think he's the best 8 at the moment. There are others that may be able to displace him in the future, but I don't think any of them have shown consistently at even domestic level that Eddie should give them a shot.

I don't see Daly getting past Joseph, JJ is a very very good defender, and his attacking instincts are very good still I feel, no great age difference either. Injury will be what gives Daly a real shot I believe.

 

[TobesHodges]

BV was injured, very clearly injured, struggled to go on for another 5 minutes or so, and then EJ pulled him off. I don't think any other 8 has proven a greater stamina level.

Interestingly, the injury that kept Hask out of the 3rd test wasn't new, interview on his facebook page he states he's been carrying the injury for months, broken bone in his foot.

Morgan isn't written off for me, but he rarely performs with Glaws, and isn't going to be able to point to his England performances since he's had a serious injury since then. He has to prove himself, and quite simply I don't think he's going to do that at Glaws. More importantly, he needs to prove himself at champions cup level I feel (I get the feeling Eddie places a lot of faith in the higher intensity of the euro games to show how people may cope at international).

I think BV isn't indispensable as such, I just think he's the best 8 at the moment. There are others that may be able to displace him in the future, but I don't think any of them have shown consistently at even domestic level that Eddie should give them a shot.

I don't see Daly getting past Joseph, JJ is a very very good defender, and his attacking instincts are very good still I feel, no great age difference either. Injury will be what gives Daly a real shot I believe.

I agree with a all of this, at the moment there isn't any reason to drop JJ he's surprisingly good at playing Gustard defence and rarely misses tackles.
I think the only position that may change is 12, pushing Farrell to 10 and trying Mallinder or Tuilagi at 12, with always having Ford on the the bench to swap it up depending on the game, I may be wrong but Tuilagi does come across slightly lazy at times, which may be exposed with the defence that England deploy, especially in the wider channels off first and second phase.

Fair play to Hask, I think pretty much everyone had written him off but EJ has definitely got the best out of him and I think even if he wasn't to play he's a character around the squad and you'd probably have him in the squad just for that.

I think one guy who has sort of been left out of the plaudits is a certain Mr Dan Cole, didn't realise he had 65 Caps has been a corner stone in this England team for the last 4-5 years, a Rock in the scrum good in the loose for a prop, he was definitely up there with Farrell and Haskell as player of the Aussie Tour.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I agree with a all of this, at the moment there isn't any reason to drop JJ he's surprisingly good at playing Gustard defence and rarely misses tackles.
I think the only position that may change is 12, pushing Farrell to 10 and trying Mallinder or Tuilagi at 12, with always having Ford on the the bench to swap it up depending on the game, I may be wrong but Tuilagi does come across slightly lazy at times, which may be exposed with the defence that England deploy, especially in the wider channels off first and second phase.

Fair play to Hask, I think pretty much everyone had written him off but EJ has definitely got the best out of him and I think even if he wasn't to play he's a character around the squad and you'd probably have him in the squad just for that.

I think one guy who has sort of been left out of the plaudits is a certain Mr Dan Cole, didn't realise he had 65 Caps has been a corner stone in this England team for the last 4-5 years, a Rock in the scrum good in the loose for a prop, he was definitely up there with Farrell and Haskell as player of the Aussie Tour.

I'd have Haskell at 6 if he keeps up his form and get a 7 in, still not sure who that is though.

As for the 12 shirt I think we have to carry on with ford/ Farrell because there is no better option. Mallinder is not ready (he needs a season starting for the saints which isn't guaranteed), Burrell is terrible, Tuilagi is I jured and always will be, is Teo the 12 Jones wants? And finally there is Slade, maybe a Farrell/ Slade combo could work?

 

[Raggs]

If Mallinder or Slade come in at 12, then why wouldn't you stick with Ford at 10? Ford is the better playmaker and tactical kicker, and if you have Mallinder or Slade taking kicks, what do you need Farrell for? Stick him on the bench for if you need a more defensively solid 10, and as 12 cover.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

If Mallinder or Slade come in at 12, then why wouldn't you stick with Ford at 10? Ford is the better playmaker and tactical kicker, and if you have Mallinder or Slade taking kicks, what do you need Farrell for? Stick him on the bench for if you need a more defensively solid 10, and as 12 cover.

Plus Slade and Ford on form would be a nightmare for defence, both can take defences apart with their running, passing and tactical kicking. It would be great building a game around their tactical flexibility. This of course does mean dropping the idea of a boshing 12, maybe a bench spot? I just don't think we need one, as long as you can create an overlap and players can fix their defenders then it should break down defences. I guess we can always look at putting a forward in the midfield every so often if we want some boshing?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

The thing with putting Slade at 12, is if you're gonna have a play making 12, why not just keep Ford-Faz?

 

[Every Time Ref]

Plus Slade and Ford on form would be a nightmare for defence, both can take defences apart with their running, passing and tactical kicking. It would be great building a game around their tactical flexibility. This of course does mean dropping the idea of a boshing 12, maybe a bench spot? I just don't think we need one, as long as you can create an overlap and players can fix their defenders then it should break down defences. I guess we can always look at putting a forward in the midfield every so often if we want some boshing?

Or a winger? I think you need some bosh somewhere otherwise you don't have full tactical flexibility.

I was thinking about this after this discussion yesterday - is there another major team that doesn't have at least one bosher out of 12 / 13? Argentina maybe?

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The thing with putting Slade at 12, is if you're gonna have a play making 12, why not just keep Ford-Faz?

Tend to agree

 

[RedruthRFC]

Ach now. Yeah, of course its hard to make judgements on club games and the odd appearance in a white shirt. But that's what Eddie's got to make judgements on too. Who out there is really offering themselves as an alternative if Jones gets a downer on the occupant?

The x-factor for me is that Jones also has access to players and gets to see how they perform in training, so decisions that seem inexplicable to us may have sound reasoning behind them.

Your question of who is really putting their hand up is a very valid one. I had a similar discussion with someone on a different forum about Ben Te'o's selection, he was adamant that there were stronger home grown candidates who should have got the spot ahead of him, but when pushed to name them, came up with a list that contained outside centres, players already in the squad and Anthony Allan! I don't get the chance to watch enough AP rugby to form my own opinion, but based on the bits I've seen and what I've read / heard, I'd have thought that there's quite a few England starters who aren't the best EQPs in the position in the AP, arguably Hartley and Brown as you say. I'd have thought that Robshaw and Haskell's claim is pretty flaky too. All of those players have experience on their side and have demonstrated that they don't vanish on the international stage, so the question to me is how much better than the incumbent does someone have to perform in order to displace the incumbent? On top of that, there's the unknown factor I mentioned above.

I'm interested to hear you say that to an extent Robson didn't take his chance. I didn't watch the Saxons matches, I only saw highlights from the first match in which he looked impressive. Were these not reflective of his tour? If so, it's a shame, everything I've read lead me to forming the opinion that he should be in the EPS ASAP.

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The thing with putting Slade at 12, is if you're gonna have a play making 12, why not just keep Ford-Faz?

The only compelling argument would be if there's a case to say that Slade would be considerably more effective than Farrell. Is this the case? I really don't know. OK you miss out on Farrell's reliable boot from the tee, but I wonder if having Slade available to take the long kicks would help Ford to look better.

 

[TobesHodges]

Farrells Defence wins it for him over slade..

 

[RedruthRFC]

Farrells Defence wins it for him over slade..

Is his edge over Slade in defence and the benefit that it brings to the team really great enough to merit sticking with him if Slade's inclusion would represent a significantly more potent attacking threat? My impression of Slade is that he's a pretty competent defender, one the one hand he's less likely to put in the odd big hit, on the other hand, it's less likely to give away a penalty for a cheap shot or petulance.

 

[Which Tyler]

Farrells Defence wins it for him over slade..

Wait - what?
Farrell's experience wins it for him over Slade (all of: his experience of top class rugby, his experience of international rugby, his experience of playing IC and his experience of playing alongside GFord), and his big-match temperament. He may be slightly more aggressive in defence than Slade, but I don't think I'd say "better", he's also far more prone to petulance, and rushing out of the line in defence. He's certainly not as good as Slade ball in hand.

I'd argue that whoever wins the battle for the IC berth at Exeter is a better IC than Farrell; and I can't see that being Slade, as he won't be challenging for it; I'd put money on it being Devoto in a couple of years, but that doesn't help for now; of course, none of the Exeter contenders (for IC) are ready for international rugby yet either, and by the time they are, Malinder and Williams are also likely to be ready.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

The thing with putting Slade at 12, is if you're gonna have a play making 12, why not just keep Ford-Faz?

While I kind of agree, Slade is quicker, better at passing the ball, better runner, better ball player in general but not as good defender or kicker.

The point is for us all that if we stick to 2 play makers you actually need 3 for when 1 is injured. So Ford, Faz and Slade and needed at certain points

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Even from a Cheifs fan, if England are going for 2 play makers then it has to be Ford-Faz. Slade hasn't been getting any game time at 12 recently and really isn't that much better in attack than Faz. For me, Faz's extra 41 caps, better defence and better kicking put him ahead of Slade. Hopefully Slade gets more game time for Chiefs that isn't in a 13 shirt this season, as that simply isn't his position and ultimately is really damaging his chances of getting in the England team.

 

[Peat]

For Slade to overtake Fazlet in the England team, he's got to prove that he's a far deadlier ball carrier at 12 for me. That would be the real point of difference.

 

[RedruthRFC]

For Slade to overtake Fazlet in the England team, he's got to prove that he's a far deadlier ball carrier at 12 for me. That would be the real point of difference.

This. Just reread my previous post and realised that I was incredibly vague / general, this is what I had in mind, put a lot more clearly.

Recent posts underline the number of factors that are considered in international selection. Experience seems to be something that Eddie Jones is keen on and IMO goes a fair way to explaining how settled selection has been.

 

[Every Time Ref]

This. Just reread my previous post and realised that I was incredibly vague / general, this is what I had in mind, put a lot more clearly.

Recent posts underline the number of factors that are considered in international selection. Experience seems to be something that Eddie Jones is keen on and IMO goes a fair way to explaining how settled selection has been.

Redruth Johnson is right about Peat Johnson's being right. (Name the movie reference and win a prize)

What are Slade's clean breaks and defenders beaten stats like? I wouldn't imagine they're anything spectacular?

 

[Peat]

Redruth Johnson is right about Peat Johnson's being right. (Name the movie reference and win a prize)

No relation.

(referencing something else here)