England EPS 2016/17 season.

[BPM]

IIRC, Jones played one game at 8 in SA. Admittedly, he was a bit anonymous, but he was very good for Wasps this season prior to his injury.

I agree that there's a massive rebuilding task at 6 and 7 though. We've got 3 years to get our new crop up to speed for Japan and for every Itoje who takes to test rugby immediately like a duck to water, most players need at least 5 or 6 caps to start looking fully comfortable.

I think we need to aim to get 3-4 players across 6 and 7 up to 20 caps worth of meaningful test experience by then. It's a tall order.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Tbh, at the moment, I think Jones has a hell of a task on his hands with the flankers. Haskshaw is solid but after that is only the void. Clifford has not developed a flanker's skill set and work rate and may never do so. People are talking up Sam Jones as a destructive flanker - didn't see that in South Africa. Harrison is interesting but needs to be doing it regularly... which also fits just about everyone else. The future could be okay but the present feels pretty grim.

If Underhill plays a handful of games this season upon his return*, and plays anywhere near to the level he did before his injury, I can't see Jones not demanding he signs for an English club.

He is the embodiment of everything he's stated he wants.

*I can't remember exactly when he's supposed to be fit, but he's registered for Europe, so it should be soon.

Somewhat related - https://twitter.com/thenameissambo

...That guy (who clearly seems to think he's in the know) suggesting that Bath were trying to do a deal with him that has fallen through.

(And also says that Ford isn't going ATM)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Above there's lots of talk about utility back row players and that's part of the problem, you need specialists at the very top level. Billy and Ben are specialist 8s, but most of the flanking options play in 2 or 3 different positions across the back row and lock and are arguably master of none. The days of a Back style 7 for instance may have gone, but there are still differing skill sets for each shirt. Muddling through with 6.5s or out of position locks won't cut it, long term. Kvesic may have some limitations, but at least he instinctively knows the role he is supposed to play.

Honest question. In super rugby did Read ever play away from 8, Kaino away from 6 or McCaw away from 7?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Frankly, I don't see the arguments against Kvesic.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Not sure I trust that Twitter account TBH.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Not sure I trust that Twitter account TBH.

Aye, anyone who puts in their bio if a famous person follows them doesn't fill me with trust.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Above there's lots of talk about utility back row players and that's part of the problem, you need specialists at the very top level. Billy and Ben are specialist 8s, but most of the flanking options play in 2 or 3 different positions across the back row and lock and are arguably master of none. The days of a Back style 7 for instance may have gone, but there are still differing skill sets for each shirt. Muddling through with 6.5s or out of position locks won't cut it, long term. Kvesic may have some limitations, but at least he instinctively knows the role he is supposed to play.

Honest question. In super rugby did Read ever play away from 8, Kaino away from 6 or McCaw away from 7?

Read started out as a 6, Kaino has played 8 for the Blues, and I'm sure McCaw has covered 6 and 8 for the Crusaders when he played. I'm sure Kiwis on here will correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[BPM]

Frankly, I don't see the arguments against Kvesic.

In the past, I would have been inclined to agree, but currently he's on the bench for Gloucester and the games he did start at the beginning on the season he was poor.

His form doesn't justify selection right now, but it would appear that, like Lancaster, there's something about him that Eddie doesn't rate, so I'm not sure how much of a contender he is.

He's still only 23 or 24 and if he does move to Exeter and really shines, who knows?

- - - Updated - - -

Above there's lots of talk about utility back row players and that's part of the problem, you need specialists at the very top level. Billy and Ben are specialist 8s, but most of the flanking options play in 2 or 3 different positions across the back row and lock and are arguably master of none. The days of a Back style 7 for instance may have gone, but there are still differing skill sets for each shirt. Muddling through with 6.5s or out of position locks won't cut it, long term. Kvesic may have some limitations, but at least he instinctively knows the role he is supposed to play.

Honest question. In super rugby did Read ever play away from 8, Kaino away from 6 or McCaw away from 7?

While I'd love us to have specialists, if we don't have them, we have to make do with what we have. Unlike club rugby, it's not like we can go out and buy someone to solve the problem and developing specialists relies on so many different variables. Firstly, you need the right talent there, secondly, you need the club to buy in to their development and all that entails and thirdly, you need to wait for them to be ready. We can develop specialists, but it's not going to happen overnight.

IMO, a goo '6.5' used in the right way can be very effective - while Haskell may have been wearing 7, he's not playing like a typical openside. Jones and Harrison are probably in the 6.5 mould and Clifford is a 7.5 for want of a better description, but the likes of Williams, Underhill and Evans are definitely more in the specialist category, so all is not lost.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't know whether you could really describe Underhill as a specialist.

He's just very good with a skillset that covers most of the back row skills.

- - - Updated - - -

Not sure I trust that Twitter account TBH.

Nor am I, just put it there FWIW.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Read started out as a 6, Kaino has played 8 for the Blues, and I'm sure McCaw has covered 6 and 8 for the Crusaders when he played. I'm sure Kiwis on here will correct me if I'm wrong.

Thought I remembered McCaw playing eight:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7155056/Richie-McCaw-confident-of-handling-No-8-role

And just because it amused me when I noticed it, a link that proves McCaw wasn't all that good:

https://goo.gl/tPdXkf

 

[Peat]

By and large, I don't think its possible to be a good enough specialist in any back row position at international level these days without having a skillset that lends itself to doing a passable job in at least one of the other back row positions. There's a few freaks out there but not many and most of them are restricted to impact roles at best.

Its not that utility back rows are the problem. Its having inferior utility back rows that is.



As for Kvesic - honestly not sure what to make of that one any more - but generally take the point of view that as he's dead to the coaches, its time to stop thinking about him. But then, I was disappointed by his South African performance.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think the only real hope he has (in the short-medium term, that is) is to move to a club that can highlight his quality.

Hopefully he can do that with Exe.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think the only real hope he has (in the short-medium term, that is) is to move to a club that can highlight his quality.

Hopefully he can do that with Exe.

Or he can improve his physicality and work off the ball like Jones stated.

He's not physical enough for this England team, until he improves that he's not top tier 1 quality.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I disagree.

If Robshaw and Wood are physical enough, Kvesic is.

In other news: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-un...h-battle-for-their-lives-after-another-windi/

I thought there was a thread about the previous one, but I couldn't find it... looks like they're ****ed.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I disagree.

If Robshaw and Wood are physical enough, Kvesic is.

In other news: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-un...h-battle-for-their-lives-after-another-windi/

I thought there was a thread about the previous one, but I couldn't find it... looks like they're ****ed.

I think he means he's not physical enough for 7. Jones wants his 6s (Robshaw, Wood) to be reliable in defence and have high work rates. He wants the 7 to be physical, which Kvesic isn't.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think he means he's not physical enough for 7. Jones wants his 6s (Robshaw, Wood) to be reliable in defence and have high work rates. He wants the 7 to be physical, which Kvesic isn't.

That's what I meant and I assume Jones did too.

Harrison looked physical in the premiership and got picked, shame he couldn't carry that to international level yet.

 

[ratsapprentice]

What he's said (fairly explicitly) is that he does want a 7; but he doesn't think we have any that are good enough.

So in lieu of that, he's picking two flankers, and he wants one of them to be very physical and aggressive.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

What he's said (fairly explicitly) is that he does want a 7; but he doesn't think we have any that are good enough.

So in lieu of that, he's picking two flankers, and he wants one of them to be very physical and aggressive.

If you look at other counties 7s they all very physical. We in the premiership just don't seem to have these types of players coming through.

We need a link man, good over the ball (turnovers), smash people in the tackle and someone with some pace.

The only man who fills that role is tom Rees! Well as far as I know.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

And a 7 who secures England's own ball off of 1st phase play.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

If you look at other counties 7s they all very physical. We in the premiership just don't seem to have these types of players coming through.

Which is totally bizarre given the criticisms of the English emphasis on physicality over skills.

Underhill will be our saviour. Far too late now but I always wonder whether Tom Youngs could have made a better 7 than hooker.