England EPS 2016/17 season.

[Peat]

That's fair comment. I'm all from bringing in guys early to get a feel for what its about and so the coaches can get a feel for the players. After a bit though, its defecate or exit.

Clifford's been in for a couple of windows, learning how things work. I expect he'll stay in the squad because he's got big potential, he's done some good things and, crucially, he's got a bit of versatility and not a lot of rivals.

However, I think for Eddie that if Clifford's not showing big improvements in work rate and the ability to do the nitty-gritty stuff by this time next year, he's going to look for someone else - or faster is someone shows up and overtakes him. And he's got to show those improvements at his club first before he gets big chances in a full strength England (stating the obvious here I think).

Will he do so? I think yes, but I'd have thought he'd have cracked it by now tbh.

A big risk for Clifford is that he'll be concentrating on 8 and a fit Beaumont and Hughes could really, really challenge him as England's 2nd 8.

That is what the club coaches are for....you know, the guys who help pay their wages?

There are parts of the international game their club coaches can't teach; that's why they're brought in.

Same with club coaches drafting guys in from the academy for sessions, or academies bringing in players from smaller clubs to begin with. You want to train people for the bigger stage before you put someone on it.

 

[Every Time Ref]

This is where club-country communication comes in - I'd hope Eddie will tell / has told Clifford what position and skills to focus on

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

That's fair comment. I'm all from bringing in guys early to get a feel for what its about and so the coaches can get a feel for the players. After a bit though, its defecate or exit.

Clifford's been in for a couple of windows, learning how things work. I expect he'll stay in the squad because he's got big potential, he's done some good things and, crucially, he's got a bit of versatility and not a lot of rivals.

However, I think for Eddie that if Clifford's not showing big improvements in work rate and the ability to do the nitty-gritty stuff by this time next year, he's going to look for someone else - or faster is someone shows up and overtakes him. And he's got to show those improvements at his club first before he gets big chances in a full strength England (stating the obvious here I think).

Will he do so? I think yes, but I'd have thought he'd have cracked it by now tbh.

A big risk for Clifford is that he'll be concentrating on 8 and a fit Beaumont and Hughes could really, really challenge him as England's 2nd 8.



There are parts of the international game their club coaches can't teach; that's why they're brought in.

Same with club coaches drafting guys in from the academy for sessions, or academies bringing in players from smaller clubs to begin with. You want to train people for the bigger stage before you put someone on it.

I think that Clifford is probably aware of the fact that with Vunipola, Hughes and Beaumont around he's not going to get in as 1st choice 8. I would imagine he's going to keep on trying to get game time on the flank at Quins so that he can continue to provide cover for all 3 back row positions off the bench.

In my mind, at 8 Clifford and Beaumont are very similar players. Both very fast, athletic 8s who grew up playing as inside backs (Clifford 12, Beaumont 10). Both are very good for breaking the line in the outside channels, and neither is really capable of getting on with the gritty work. So of the 2, at 8 I would opt for Beaumont, simply because he's bigger and stronger. I also think he runs superb lines, which really accommodate his athleticism. I don't think Clifford's quite mastered that yet. However, whichever 1 develops a work rate and an ability to work in the grit is the 1 that overall will get my vote.

 

[msf]

I think that Clifford is probably aware of the fact that with Vunipola, Hughes and Beaumont around he's not going to get in as 1st choice 8. I would imagine he's going to keep on trying to get game time on the flank at Quins so that he can continue to provide cover for all 3 back row positions off the bench.

In my mind, at 8 Clifford and Beaumont are very similar players. Both very fast, athletic 8s who grew up playing as inside backs (Clifford 12, Beaumont 10). Both are very good for breaking the line in the outside channels, and neither is really capable of getting on with the gritty work. So of the 2, at 8 I would opt for Beaumont, simply because he's bigger and stronger. I also think he runs superb lines, which really accommodate his athleticism. I don't think Clifford's quite mastered that yet. However, whichever 1 develops a work rate and an ability to work in the grit is the 1 that overall will get my vote.

Clifford runs amazing lines, you obviously haven´t watched him much.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Clifford runs amazing lines, you obviously haven´t watched him much.

No he doesn't. He makes breaks in the outside channels. With his pace and stature, it would be concerning if he didn't. He uses his athleticism to beat defenders, not by running lines that are particularly special. That's not necessarily a bad thing as long as he's still beating defenders.

Beaumont on the other hand is, IMO, the best in the Prem at hitting hard lines off of the 10. Just watch some Sale Sharks highlights and you'll see what I mean, he really is brilliant at it. It'll be interesting to see whether he's able to keep that up now that Cips is moving on. I hope he can as he really was devastating when he did it, but that may just be down to the superb bond he had with Cips. Anyway, if we can get him doing that off of Ford in an England shirt, he will create tries. Him coming off the bench would provide such a different threat to Vunipola in the 8 shirt that I don't think defences would be able to handle it. I'm desperate to see him in an England shirt as I think he is the only English 8 that can really challenge Billy for the 8 shirt (I'm not counting Hughes as English). If he can start to really work in the dirty aspects of the game, then he really could be excellent.

One last note, having him on the bench over Clifford would make sense as Beaumont covers the positions Clifford does (Maybe not 7) as well as lock, so it may mean Eddie doesn't have to go for 6-2 split anymore, if he can have a back row sub that also covers lock.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

100%
I don't rate Clifford's reading/line running (it's good but not world class) but his open field running is as good as I've seen since Croft burst into the scene.
A flanker with the running/hands of a centre is relatively special.

I'd still take Beaumont/Underhill over Clifford though

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

100%
I don't rate Clifford's reading/line running (it's good but not world class) but his open field running is as good as I've seen since Croft burst into the scene.
A flanker with the running/hands of a centre is relatively special.

I'd still take Beaumont/Underhill over Clifford though

Although I won't disregard that there are advantages to having a back row able to run like a 13, ideally you would prefer them to fill the role of a back rower. That's why I would never feel comfortable starting Clifford. Especially not if he's at flank with Billy 8, then you have 0 work rate in your back row. If he'd kept playing centre than I reckon there would probably be a starting England shirt for him at 12 or maybe 13, but as he's a back rower, I would seriously question whether he's even worth having on the bench, as I don't think he brings a particularly big impact, no more than Beaumont or Harrison, and isn't reliable enough in defence to close out a game. Just look at his defence stats against Wales. 5/8 tackles made. 5 tackles on its own is an appalling work rate, but to have missed 3 on top of that is just embarrassing. Had he not scored that try I think people would've been calling for him to be dropped after that performance.

Of the young back rowers I rate him 5th option at 6 (Ewers, Underhill, Itoje, Harrison), 4th at 7 (Underhill, Harrison, Kvesic), and 4th at 8 (Vunipola, Beaumont, Hughes). In my mind his only redeeming quality is that he is able to cover the whole back-row, but then again, so is Harrison, and Harrison is a better player. If Clifford doesn't seriously improve on his work rate and defence, I wouldn't want to see him in the 2018 EPS.

 

[Peat]

One last note, having him on the bench over Clifford would make sense as Beaumont covers the positions Clifford does (Maybe not 7) as well as lock, so it may mean Eddie doesn't have to go for 6-2 split anymore, if he can have a back row sub that also covers lock.

He doesn't have to go for it now; more he wants to.

 

[Blofeld]

At the risk of banging on - and subject to the trenchant views of the "he's too mercenary" posse - I really feel a physical back row of Hughes - Billy - Underhill looks interesting.. I appreciate that Hughes gets criticised for work-rate compared to Haskell, but Haskell got criticised for work-rate compared to Haskell before this series, so it can clearly be learned/taught. Would offer a different ball carrier to Billy - imagine defending with those two offering themselves as strike runners - and, as/if BV tires, Hughes slips into 8, leaving the established Itoje/Lawes switch at lock, or Ewers (if Eddie decides to look at him), Clifford etc to move into 6, or even bring on Beaumont as a rangy attack runner (with excellent lines). I'm new to this. Be nice.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Looking at the future in terms of back row we have ATM
6) Ewers (25), Williams (24),
7) Kvesic (24), Harrison (23), Underhill (19), Evans (19)
8) Vunipola (23), Clifford (23), Beaumont (24)

Evans is a stretch but that is looking really into the future. I like the look of Nott as wel but I don't think he has played a senior game yet.

6 is looking a bit thin but I swear I'm missing some names.

Left Hughes for obvious reasons.

 

[msf]

No he doesn't. He makes breaks in the outside channels. With his pace and stature, it would be concerning if he didn't. He uses his athleticism to beat defenders, not by running lines that are particularly special. That's not necessarily a bad thing as long as he's still beating defenders.

Beaumont on the other hand is, IMO, the best in the Prem at hitting hard lines off of the 10. Just watch some Sale Sharks highlights and you'll see what I mean, he really is brilliant at it. It'll be interesting to see whether he's able to keep that up now that Cips is moving on. I hope he can as he really was devastating when he did it, but that may just be down to the superb bond he had with Cips. Anyway, if we can get him doing that off of Ford in an England shirt, he will create tries. Him coming off the bench would provide such a different threat to Vunipola in the 8 shirt that I don't think defences would be able to handle it. I'm desperate to see him in an England shirt as I think he is the only English 8 that can really challenge Billy for the 8 shirt (I'm not counting Hughes as English). If he can start to really work in the dirty aspects of the game, then he really could be excellent.

One last note, having him on the bench over Clifford would make sense as Beaumont covers the positions Clifford does (Maybe not 7) as well as lock, so it may mean Eddie doesn't have to go for 6-2 split anymore, if he can have a back row sub that also covers lock.

Hard lines off the 10 you say?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCatrn69Bdw

I think Beaumont is actually better at hanging out wide a la Keiran Read, Clifford wants to be involved all the time and so carries in midfield more, which because of his excellent technique in the contact he can do despite the fact that he is much lighter than any of the other 8s. Clifford also runs amazing support lines, just watch some of the tries he scored for the u20s.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Hard lines off the 10 you say?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCatrn69Bdw

I think Beaumont is actually better at hanging out wide a la Keiran Read, Clifford wants to be involved all the time and so carries in midfield more, which because of his excellent technique in the contact he can do despite the fact that he is much lighter than any of the other 8s. Clifford also runs amazing support lines, just watch some of the tries he scored for the u20s.

There's only two in there where Clifford receives the ball directly from first receiver, 0:30 and 1:20.

At 1:20 he gets the inside ball practically standing still, it's his skill which takes him past 2 defenders to score, I wouldn't call that running a line.

0:30 is hard because the clip starts pretty much as soon as he gets the ball so you can't see where he's run from, but yes as far as I can tell he seems to have picked a good line to make that break.

 

[msf]

So we agree, he can pick good lines.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

So we agree, he can pick good lines.

He's able to run straight at holes. Big whoop. He doesn't pick particularly clever lines to catch defences off guard. Beaumont does. Excellently. I'm on my phone so I can't get a link of it, but watch the Premiership Try of the Week Round 7. He showcases it superbly.

 

[Every Time Ref]

So we agree, he can pick good lines.

We agree he's done it at least once. So yes, I guess technically speaking that means he can pick good lines.

That video doesn't prove that running good lines is a significant part of his game though. It shows him doing it once.

 

[msf]

Well, I don´t think arguments like these convince anyone, so I will just say that I expect Clifford to continue to bench for England, unless we get a 6 who is as quick as the 7 (such as Underhill).

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

He's able to run straight at holes. Big whoop. He doesn't pick particularly clever lines to catch defences off guard. Beaumont does. Excellently. I'm on my phone so I can't get a link of it, but watch the Premiership Try of the Week Round 7. He showcases it superbly.

It's a very big whoop given the English default option of seeking contact. We have few game breakers and one moment of inspiration like that can turn a match.

Given that he's a looser style player I don't think you can ever expect him to match the work rate of Haskshaw, but he needs to be a lot closer. As ever it's about balance though and what the unit brings.

 

[msf]

Oh, and I watched the video you mentioned, and Beaumont just does what Clifford does in the video I posted, he stands flat inside the fly half and takes the inside ball, the only difference is that Clifford has to adjust his line because there are cover defenders, whilst Beaumont has a free run to the line. As I said, I´m sure I won´t convince you, just pointing out that these things are very subjective.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Oh, and I watched the video you mentioned, and Beaumont just does what Clifford does in the video I posted, he stands flat inside the fly half and takes the inside ball, the only difference is that Clifford has to adjust his line because there are cover defenders, whilst Beaumont has a free run to the line. As I said, I´m sure I won´t convince you, just pointing out that these things are very subjective.

Ok fair enough. At the end of the day, Clifford's ability to run lines is far from the biggest worry regarding him. His defence and work rate are what really let him down. Beaumont is a much better No. 8, the only thing I can see keeping him out and Clifford in is Clifford's ability to play 7. Hopefully when he's back to fitness, Beaumont is given a go in an England shirt as I rate him very highly. There aren't many in the world who can match him for both pace and size. He truly is a freak athlete and has a very good rugby brain, he just needs to up his work rate.

To get off of this Clifford v Beaumont argument, the 12 shirt. Discuss (Faz, Slade, Tuilagi, Burrell, Te'o, Mallinder, Devoto, Hill, Eastmond, Barritt)

 

[msf]

Twelvetrees?

Just kidding. I think he will continue with Farrell and Joseph for the autumn internationals, but hopefully an alternate pairing of Tuilagi/Te´o and Slade/Daly will at least come off the bench early in the Fiji game.