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England 6 Nation squad 2024

Wendigo7 said:
For 16 years I've watched our forwards do 1 out running into contact, to no effect. Maybe longer. Our structures in attack to reset, things in place to reset play but keep the ball in hand and secure are not there.

Why did we stop having forwards running onto the ball at pace to punch a hole, ala teams of old?

Just feels like if we could get Vesty and Blackett in, purely as guidance for 6 weeks or so, to help and develop Wigglesworth and maybe borthwick too, we might start getting somewhere. Or on the summer tour to NZ. Lord god help us. But since 2003 we've never ever been coherent in attack if it's not set phase or insanely overcoached. There's no comfort being on the ball, whilst on the attack. It's got to end.
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Largely, because those halcyon days never really existed - which isn't 100% accurate, as they did exist for 3-4 years at the turn of the century, but that was more down to being (along with NZ) the only properly professional outfit in international rugby (as opposed to paid hobbeyists).
Oh, and you need to go (a little) further back than 2003 to say that we've been coherent in attack outside of set phases or overcoaching. That phase can pretty much be defined as "that bit when Brian Ashton was England's attack coach before being pushed out"

Of the coaches who's teams I remember watching, if you think that Geoff Cooke, Jack Rowell, SCW (95-98), SCW (02-04), Andy Robinson or Brian Ashton as head coach (16 years ago takes us to 2008) were playing that sort of rugby, then you remember it very differently from myself.
 
Our 2 most successful eras of relatively modern times were Carling's team of the early 90s and the 03 team.

Both were founded on feared packs, which we haven't had for a while. Both were also more than capable of playing 'attacking' rugby - just look at the list of England's top scorers.

Despite what some of the clubs are doing, if there's anything in our DNA, it's a game based on forward power. There are some encouraging signs in the emergence of the likes of Martin, CCS, Barbeary etc but that is going to take a while to come to fruition and we desperately need a whole new generation of front rowers to come through. Until that happens a lot of the other conversations are probably moot.

Forward power doesn't mean a dull game plan, it just gives a really solid foundation and options. The game changes but there's still some truth in the old adage about forwards winning matches and backs deciding by how much.
 
The real problem is what do we do now though?

We don't seem to have any recognisable gameplan and have a constant urge to box kick these 50/50 balls which apparently we only get 26% back (according to the stats pre Scotland game). It's just bonkers, the players look lost and our tactics just seem non existent.

In my mind you have to pick the best players and then fit a gameplan around them. We don't have players to play that power game any more so we have to try something different but the current selection is a mash of everything and doesn't work.

While I wasn't expecting miracles, I expected us to improve on last year and we haven't. 25 points worse off and our gameplan looks all over the shop.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
It was ridiculous to bring in the nation swapping to start with - it was solely to appease the Pacific Players Union and then it didn't even help them, now it's just Tier 1 nations abusing it

Need to bin it off asap
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Like WR give a toss about the Pacific players union.

It was done so that rugby can be an olympic sport. You can't be an olympic sport if you don't allow changes of nationality in <1 olympic cycle.
 
Quel Carreleur said:
Like WR give a toss about the Pacific players union.

It was done so that rugby can be an olympic sport. You can't be an olympic sport if you don't allow changes of nationality in <1 olympic cycle.
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How come it came in so long after the Olympics, though? Two full Olympic games before there were even rumblings of it in XVs - the 7s loophole was there ages ago, the new rules are different to that (i.e. before you had to play in olympics qualifier 7s tournaments to switch, now you can do it at will)

From what I read it was Dan Leo's players union that saw it over the line
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
The real problem is what do we do now though?

We don't seem to have any recognisable gameplan and have a constant urge to box kick these 50/50 balls which apparently we only get 26% back (according to the stats pre Scotland game). It's just bonkers, the players look lost and our tactics just seem non existent.

In my mind you have to pick the best players and then fit a gameplan around them. We don't have players to play that power game any more so we have to try something different but the current selection is a mash of everything and doesn't work.

While I wasn't expecting miracles, I expected us to improve on last year and we haven't. 25 points worse off and our gameplan looks all over the shop.
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I agree on the whole. However, this '25 points worse off' business' is not good analysis. I get what you're trying to say, but for it to be relevant, we'd need to be comparing the same 23s playing each other again, which we're clearly not.
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
The real problem is what do we do now though?

We don't seem to have any recognisable gameplan and have a constant urge to box kick these 50/50 balls which apparently we only get 26% back (according to the stats pre Scotland game). It's just bonkers, the players look lost and our tactics just seem non existent.

In my mind you have to pick the best players and then fit a gameplan around them. We don't have players to play that power game any more so we have to try something different but the current selection is a mash of everything and doesn't work.

While I wasn't expecting miracles, I expected us to improve on last year and we haven't. 25 points worse off and our gameplan looks all over the shop.
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Funny how similar a place both Wales and England are in except we're perhaps blodding in a few more youngsters than you.

Think you need to give him a bit more time. It's been clear as day for a while now that you're as **** as us so this 6N should be no surprise to you lot. Wins against Italy and Wales were always likely to be the only wins you'd get but the difference between us is you've got 6 more clubs than us and have the talent there. No point getting rid of Borthwick now, you have to give him a bit more time surely.

At least you're not in our situation where Gatland won't be sacked before the next WC even if he gets us 3 consecutive wooden spoons.
 
Welsh Exile said:
Funny how similar a place both Wales and England are in except we're perhaps blodding in a few more youngsters than you.

Think you need to give him a bit more time. It's been clear as day for a while now that you're as **** as us so this 6N should be no surprise to you lot. Wins against Italy and Wales were always likely to be the only wins you'd get but the difference between us is you've got 6 more clubs than us and have the talent there. No point getting rid of Borthwick now, you have to give him a bit more time surely.

At least you're not in our situation where Gatland won't be sacked before the next WC even if he gets us 3 consecutive wooden spoons.
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There's lovely.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
How come it came in so long after the Olympics, though? Two full Olympic games before there were even rumblings of it in XVs - the 7s loophole was there ages ago, the new rules are different to that (i.e. before you had to play in olympics qualifier 7s tournaments to switch, now you can do it at will)

From what I read it was Dan Leo's players union that saw it over the line
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The 7s loophole was the start, and what got rugby into the olympics in the first place. IOC felt it was too strict, and wanted something more unified across the sport.
 
Can anyone tell me what Ethan Rootes brings to the side? I'm really struggling here, he doesn't seem to have any USP as a player at all
His selection is strange given the depth we have in that position
 
Quel Carreleur said:
Richard Hill likes him.
I think that's about it.
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Yes I thought SB justification for bringing in him based on RH was on odd one. This is the pinnacle of our sport, it all seems very amateurish doesn't it. Even if RH was a great 6 himself
 
BPM said:
I agree on the whole. However, this '25 points worse off' business' is not good analysis. I get what you're trying to say, but for it to be relevant, we'd need to be comparing the same 23s playing each other again, which we're clearly not.
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I understand that. I just wanted a high level view on the two victories and how we compared to last year. For me I expected to see progress from year irrespective of the changes to personnel that aren't really as onerous as being made out by some (SB 'team is transition bs').

I really just want to be proud to watch England again and it's so sad seeing this shower of shite for the last 3 years.

What's more telling is my son will happily watch Scotland, Ireland and even wales but not England as he says it's boring. That's worrying.
 
LIONSxv said:
Yes I thought SB justification for bringing in him based on RH was on odd one. This is the pinnacle of our sport, it all seems very amateurish doesn't it. Even if RH was a great 6 himself
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I think RH is really valued as a scout by the RFU


Also he wasn't poor with Exeter or anything. Worth a shot imo
 

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