England 6 Nation squad 2024

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I wonder if any coaching is going on beyond a spreadsheet. England look clueless, it comes across like most pre my teams would smash England right now.

SB needs to pick a decent set of players and play a gameplan that suits them. Picking Ford, Daly and others and trying to play this random half gameplan isn't working but it was never going to.

SB makes basic mistakes constantly, he's miles off an international coach. It's so depressing watching England, no structure, no gameplan, poor selection and yet again more losses.

 

[LIONSxv]

Guinness Men's Six Nations Statistics - 2024 - Guinness Men's Six Nations

Explore comprehensive statistics for the season 2024 for the M6N competition. Dive into detailed insights, player performances, team standings, and more.

www.sixnationsrugby.com

Player stats are telling
No English player is top 10 for running meters, offloads or clean out work
Ben Earl and Maro do well in carrying and ruck work.
Team stats are even more daming. Scrum, Offloads, Tackles missed, Passes, Ruck speed all poor.
The stats in this instance confirm what we already know

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, Roots needs dropping - his number one selling point, pre tournament, was his ruck work, hitting/clearing/securing every ruck in a 10mile area
If he's not stand out at that what is he stand out at?

**** it chuck Ben Curry in for a dual openside vs Ireland,
He had the 3rd best defensive ruck effectiveness in the world in 2023, made the most dominant tackles all told in the world in 2023 and 2nd most per 80 - also very good at the breakdown, so sounds like what we're missing

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

You can read a whole lot into stats, which may or may not really be there.

Earl our most prolific carrier but no offloads or line breaks. Is he a headless chicken looking for contact, is he doing brilliantly to make ground in tight spaces, are the support runners not, er, supporting?

Give me context!

 

[Noonz]

Can Borthwick call players that dropped into the A squad back up to the Senior squad? Pearson for Roots straight away.

Edit: I'd also get Harry Randall called up ASAP.

 

[Reiser99]

Guinness Men's Six Nations Statistics - 2024 - Guinness Men's Six Nations

Explore comprehensive statistics for the season 2024 for the M6N competition. Dive into detailed insights, player performances, team standings, and more.

www.sixnationsrugby.com

Player stats are telling
No English player is top 10 for running meters, offloads or clean out work
Ben Earl and Maro do well in carrying and ruck work.
Team stats are even more daming. Scrum, Offloads, Tackles missed, Passes, Ruck speed all poor.
The stats in this instance confirm what we already know

Hey, we're still top of all time 6Ns wins, all time 6Ns points scored, all time 6Ns tries scored.

I mean, we won't be by the time Borthwick's reign comes to an end, but we are for now.

Having said that I did try to compare with 2023 stats and ruck speeds across all 3 categories only totalled 90%. Is that maybe 10% turnover? If not then I'm not sure what happened to 10% of rucks last year, so maybe stats aren't completely accurate. I reckon there are better, more accurate stats out there.

 

[Saintjay]

Guinness Men's Six Nations Statistics - 2024 - Guinness Men's Six Nations

Explore comprehensive statistics for the season 2024 for the M6N competition. Dive into detailed insights, player performances, team standings, and more.

www.sixnationsrugby.com

Player stats are telling
No English player is top 10 for running meters, offloads or clean out work
Ben Earl and Maro do well in carrying and ruck work.
Team stats are even more daming. Scrum, Offloads, Tackles missed, Passes, Ruck speed all poor.
The stats in this instance confirm what we already know

We weren't good at any thing when Steve took over. Ignoring the amount of caps we still have, take away the senior players. We are a new team and building. We only had a couple of weeks before the Scotland game and quite a few of the squad only several weeks before the world cup. Week on week we keep getting better.

 

[Deleted member 88328]

We all know England is not at their best (age, youth etc) but they have a good mix and should be doing better than this. I've said it before, but they just seem stagnant to me and the risk there is others are and will get better. I don't know what exactly is going wrong, but the style of play just doesn't seem to work or bring out the best of them. If the systems doesn't work, the players don't seem to have any creative flair to think up something quick. The system needs a really close look at and the coaches need to start on something different I think.

 

[Reiser99]

England jersey 'weighing heavy' - Monye

The England jersey appears to be "weighing heavy" for Steve Borthwick's players after defeat by Scotland in the Six Nations, says Ugo Monye.

www.bbc.co.uk

Monye saying that the coaching needs to change first.

 

[higgik]

Some changes are needed for the next game.

1) Martin in for Chessum. He's been woeful these last 3 games.
2) Drop Roots - Replace with Barbeary or Pearson. If Barbeary comes in, move Underhill to 6, Earl to 7
3) Put Randall on the bench over Spencer. We needed pace, yet got a ponderous display
4) Drop Daly, replace with IFW
5) Bring back Steward if you're not going to change the up and under tactic


I don't know where to start with the centre partnership. Ford, slade and Lawrence looked like they met on the morning of the game. Was Lawrence fully fit?

Is Marcus Smith fit for Ireland?

Tuima straight in to start with Martin.
Nothing to lose.
Pearson to 6. Earl at 8 and Underhill at 7.
Smith 10 if fit.
11. IFW
12. Manu
13. Lawrence
14. Hodge
15 Steward

 

[higgik]

Tuima straight in to start with Martin.
Nothing to lose.
Pearson to 6. Earl at 8 and Underhill at 7.
Smith 10 if fit.
11. IFW
12. Manu
13. Lawrence
14. Hodge
15 Steward

Sorry Freeman at 13 instead of Lawrence.

 

[higgik]

Yeah, Roots needs dropping - his number one selling point, pre tournament, was his ruck work, hitting/clearing/securing every ruck in a 10mile area
If he's not stand out at that what is he stand out at?

**** it chuck Ben Curry in for a dual openside vs Ireland,
He had the 3rd best defensive ruck effectiveness in the world in 2023, made the most dominant tackles all told in the world in 2023 and 2nd most per 80 - also very good at the breakdown, so sounds like what we're missing

The 2nd row would need a wholesale change to add more power for that to happen.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The 2nd row would need a wholesale change to add more power for that to happen.

Or you just put in Martin at 5

 

[Which Tyler]

I'm nowhere near as negative as most people here.
The ball didn't stick far too many times. Lawrence showed the folly of putting players straight from injury and into the starting XV (as did Underhill a few weeks ago). Ford is nursing an injury and off-form, but that's nothing new.

Beyond that, there were more positives from that match than pretty much any Borthwick match barring Argentina at the RWC.
We actually tried to attack (no idea why we then stopped trying) and it looked promising, but new to everyone - which is it was.
We're blitzing in defence, because that's what we're doing now, and it looked promising, but new to everyone - which it nearly was.
We are introducing new and newish players into the squad; even if we're not introducing 20 of them all at once (which would be even more suicidal).
We've been told by South Africa - and can check for ourselves, that this defensive system takes 15-16 matches to bed in. I'm not willing to throw it out after 3. When a blitz defence goes wrong, it goes horribly wrong - but then, we've known that since it first came to Union 16 years ago.
Oh, and CCS, IFW and Fin Smith all got decent minutes, and came on when the match was still in the balance (on the score board, at least)

I never wanted Borthwick. But we reached par at the RWC, which meant that he gets until the end of 2025 to prove me wrong - costs mean that he probably gets until 2027 regardless .
Scotland are a good side, we were never expected to win this, and the margin on the scoreboard looks pretty close to what most of us were predicting beforehand.
We're not good. I didn't expect us to be. We showed more than I expected, even if it mostly didn't come off, largely because it's all new.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Mitchell out for the rest of the 6N (ACL injury, due back in 2 months ish)

Wouldn't be surprised to see Randall as first choice by the end of the tournament , he's the most similar to Mitchell

Grauniad reporting he might be available as early as Ire….makes you wonder about some of the medics judgement.

M Smith expected to be fit for Ire.

 

[BPM]

I'm nowhere near as negative as most people here.
The ball didn't stick far too many times. Lawrence showed the folly of putting players straight from injury and into the starting XV (as did Underhill a few weeks ago). Ford is nursing an injury and off-form, but that's nothing new.

Beyond that, there were more positives from that match than pretty much any Borthwick match barring Argentina at the RWC.
We actually tried to attack (no idea why we then stopped trying) and it looked promising, but new to everyone - which is it was.
We're blitzing in defence, because that's what we're doing now, and it looked promising, but new to everyone - which it nearly was.
We are introducing new and newish players into the squad; even if we're not introducing 20 of them all at once (which would be even more suicidal).
We've been told by South Africa - and can check for ourselves, that this defensive system takes 15-16 matches to bed in. I'm not willing to throw it out after 3. When a blitz defence goes wrong, it goes horribly wrong - but then, we've known that since it first came to Union 16 years ago.
Oh, and CCS, IFW and Fin Smith all got decent minutes, and came on when the match was still in the balance (on the score board, at least)

I never wanted Borthwick. But we reached par at the RWC, which meant that he gets until the end of 2025 to prove me wrong - costs mean that he probably gets until 2027 regardless .
Scotland are a good side, we were never expected to win this, and the margin on the scoreboard looks pretty close to what most of us were predicting beforehand.
We're not good. I didn't expect us to be. We showed more than I expected, even if it mostly didn't come off, largely because it's all new.

I agree with parts of this.

Actually, I think the blitz was pretty good. Their tries mostly came from our mistakes being ruthlessly punished rather the defensive system failing. Arguably, we created their tries for them with shocking handling and sloppiness. I'll probably get shot down for saying so, but Italy actually did a better job of beating our defence than Scotland did. We just didn't gift wrap the points in the same way.

As you say, we were never expecting to win and a margin of 5-10 would have been considered a pretty fair bet. So it proved …

 

[Wendigo7]

You can read a whole lot into stats, which may or may not really be there.

Earl our most prolific carrier but no offloads or line breaks. Is he a headless chicken looking for contact, is he doing brilliantly to make ground in tight spaces, are the support runners not, er, supporting?

Give me context!

Right. I'll actually answer the offloads bit.

It's right now, a nice to have, but I don't think Borthwick, Wiggles and co care about it. I don't think the players or the fans should either. We're focusing on getting coherent, consistent systems, with short sharp instructions across the field that the players can default to in this new gameplan and execute. Sadly at the moment, there's issues, at various parts which are causing a breakdown. The knock on syndrome atm is at horrific levels. I sometimes wonder is it entirely players or are they entirely confident or sure of the instructions they are being given?

Ireland went through a similar period, maybe not quite as bad. Maybe selecting the correct players for the gameplan is an issue for Steve currently.

Speaking of such an issue, it's being insinuated in the mail that, that's that. Care and Ford are out. Mitchell and Marcus Smith will start at 10 next game.

My god this could be one rough year. We need to somehow get Blackett and Vesty in, even Nick Evans... and help Wiggles out. I don't want the clubs to be without good coaching so I don't really want them poached tbh. I'd quite like it if the RFU got in with Blackett and Vesty and said to wiggles, lads are coming in to help out... see what's wrong with the units.. is it the players selected? Is it the short sharp instructions? Is it the structures in place to execute?

Whatever it takes, but I get the feeling this problem isn't going away.

 

[Saintjay]

Is Mike Catt still leaving Ireland as backs coach? No idea if he is or what he's doing next. Not even sure he'd be a good shout or not.

As a Saints fan I'd rather **** in my hands and clap rather than lose Sam Vesty at the moment.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'm nowhere near as negative as most people here.
The ball didn't stick far too many times. Lawrence showed the folly of putting players straight from injury and into the starting XV (as did Underhill a few weeks ago). Ford is nursing an injury and off-form, but that's nothing new.

Beyond that, there were more positives from that match than pretty much any Borthwick match barring Argentina at the RWC.
We actually tried to attack (no idea why we then stopped trying) and it looked promising, but new to everyone - which is it was.
We're blitzing in defence, because that's what we're doing now, and it looked promising, but new to everyone - which it nearly was.
We are introducing new and newish players into the squad; even if we're not introducing 20 of them all at once (which would be even more suicidal).
We've been told by South Africa - and can check for ourselves, that this defensive system takes 15-16 matches to bed in. I'm not willing to throw it out after 3. When a blitz defence goes wrong, it goes horribly wrong - but then, we've known that since it first came to Union 16 years ago.
Oh, and CCS, IFW and Fin Smith all got decent minutes, and came on when the match was still in the balance (on the score board, at least)

I never wanted Borthwick. But we reached par at the RWC, which meant that he gets until the end of 2025 to prove me wrong - costs mean that he probably gets until 2027 regardless .
Scotland are a good side, we were never expected to win this, and the margin on the scoreboard looks pretty close to what most of us were predicting beforehand.
We're not good. I didn't expect us to be. We showed more than I expected, even if it mostly didn't come off, largely because it's all new.

Part of the issue is the coaching team SB put around him - it was palpably weak and inexperienced when he needed strong.

Maybe the plan from outset was to bring in F Jones but he's at least our 4th D coach since 21 - anyone remember Siebold and Hosgson - and already the 2nd on SB's watch. No wonder the players don't know their butts from their elbows.

Wiggles doesn't really have the track record and it wouldn't be a great leap of faith to see him replaced bringing yet more "new".

 

[Wendigo7]

For 16 years I've watched our forwards do 1 out running into contact, to no effect. Maybe longer. Our structures in attack to reset, things in place to reset play but keep the ball in hand and secure are not there.

Why did we stop having forwards running onto the ball at pace to punch a hole, ala teams of old?

Just feels like if we could get Vesty and Blackett in, purely as guidance for 6 weeks or so, to help and develop Wigglesworth and maybe borthwick too, we might start getting somewhere. Or on the summer tour to NZ. Lord god help us. But since 2003 we've never ever been coherent in attack if it's not set phase or insanely overcoached. There's no comfort being on the ball, whilst on the attack. It's got to end.