England 2024/25

[Geordie]

Just to add....fortunately Steve Borthwick isnt impressed with the " next big thing" and wants to see meat on the bones of players performances (most of the time)

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

England U18 Men's team to face Ireland (includes current academy and school/college)

15 James Pater (Northampton Saints, The Leys)
14 Junior Denny (Gloucester, Bloxham)
13 Will Knight (Gloucester, Hartpury College)
12 Declan Treacey (Bath, Beechen Cliff)
11 Charlie Tamani (Northampton Saints, Finborough)
10 Oscar Talbot (Leicester Tigers, Rugby)
9 Isaac Mears (Bath, Beechen Cliff)
1 Alan Poku (Saracens, Bishop Wand)
2 Kealan Freeman-Price (Gloucester, Hartpury College)
3 Sam Bland (Yorkshire Academy, Bishop Burton College)
4 Freddie Ogden-Metherell (Gloucester, Dean Close)
5 Henry Laidlow (Harlequins, Trinity)
6 Elliot Williams (c) (Harlequins, Gordon's) *
7 Jack Lewis (Northampton Saints, Northampton School for Boys)
8 George Marsh (Leicester Tigers, Denstone College)

Replacements

16 Jerold Gorleku (Harlequins, Bishop Wand)
17 Oliver Spencer (Yorkshire Academy, Grammar School at Leeds)
18 Harry Wright (Gloucester, Stourport High)
19 Archie Appleby (Northampton Saints, Sedbergh)
20 Tate Williams (Harlequins, Worth)
21 James Townsend (Leicester Tigers, Warwick)
22 Hugh Shields (Northampton Saints, Northampton School for Boys)
23 Victor Worsnip (Bristol Bears, Clifton College) *
24 Henry Lumley (Northampton Saints, Finborough)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Murley hmmmm IDK when he is going to be fit again, and after that England game he will need to have a stormer end of season once he gets fit. (Got to remember there is only like 6 games of the season left if a prem team misses the play offs (Quins won't beat Leinster in Europe)

He would have to be pretty resilient to bounce back from what happened in Ireland and his injury. It was one game and his debut so you can't read too much into it. Probably depends on where SB really views him in the pecking order - first cab off the rank or 6th. But on balance he's probably worth another look.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Both Smiths going with the Lions?

I think there will be 2 English 10s on tour, just not convinced they'll both be called Smith.

The Lions is about the here and now, not potential or the next RWC cycle. Probably bar Leinster there won't be much in the way of club units. It's a huge showcase which largely suits proven experience.

Russell is first choice. Really can't see any Welsh or Irish 10s going. The nearest proxy to Russell is probably M Smith, so I think he goes…..he may even get the chance to play alongside a proper 12.

If you want a calm head to just do the simple things well and turn the screw are you going for the experience of Ford or the potential of F Smith? I'd probably go Ford, F's time will come.

And then we know French based players are being looked at…..

 

[BPM]

It's going to be an interesting one for sure. I actually like the way Heyes has developed - he's got a good amount of experience under his belt, he's a bigger unit than I thought and by his own admission he's really knuckled down and it shows. Bit like Stuart his trajectory is upwards heading towards his peak years.

Fasogbon, AOF and to a lesser extent Sela have all burst onto the scene very young having been dominant at age group and made decent starts to their senior careers. We might be looking at some future world superstars, but equally we might just be looking at guys who physically matured early and have done well as unknowns. Let's see how they stack up over the next few years with expectations on shoulders and targets on backs. The game's full of the next big things who weren't.

100% agreed on all of the above. Heyes is maturing nicely. He should be coming into his peak years and there hasn't been an obvious drop off in our scrum stability when he's come off the bench which is a good sign.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

England U18 Men's team to face Ireland (includes current academy and school/college)

15 James Pater (Northampton Saints, The Leys)
14 Junior Denny (Gloucester, Bloxham)
13 Will Knight (Gloucester, Hartpury College)
12 Declan Treacey (Bath, Beechen Cliff)
11 Charlie Tamani (Northampton Saints, Finborough)
10 Oscar Talbot (Leicester Tigers, Rugby)
9 Isaac Mears (Bath, Beechen Cliff)
1 Alan Poku (Saracens, Bishop Wand)
2 Kealan Freeman-Price (Gloucester, Hartpury College)
3 Sam Bland (Yorkshire Academy, Bishop Burton College)
4 Freddie Ogden-Metherell (Gloucester, Dean Close)
5 Henry Laidlow (Harlequins, Trinity)
6 Elliot Williams (c) (Harlequins, Gordon's) *
7 Jack Lewis (Northampton Saints, Northampton School for Boys)
8 George Marsh (Leicester Tigers, Denstone College)

Replacements

16 Jerold Gorleku (Harlequins, Bishop Wand)
17 Oliver Spencer (Yorkshire Academy, Grammar School at Leeds)
18 Harry Wright (Gloucester, Stourport High)
19 Archie Appleby (Northampton Saints, Sedbergh)
20 Tate Williams (Harlequins, Worth)
21 James Townsend (Leicester Tigers, Warwick)
22 Hugh Shields (Northampton Saints, Northampton School for Boys)
23 Victor Worsnip (Bristol Bears, Clifton College) *
24 Henry Lumley (Northampton Saints, Finborough)

Tate Williams is very good

 

[Saintjay]

Nice to see some of the Northampton NSB lads getting a run out.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Sweeney survives….

Bill Sweeney: RFU chief executive survives no-confidence vote at special general meeting

Rugby Football Union chief executive Bill Sweeney survives a vote of no confidence at a special general meeting.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Which Tyler]

I'm still not sure what "change" people wanted - beyond "not that"
It seems to be the optics of the bonus (in which case, blame the people who wrote the contract) and giving less free money to the Championship (and giving it to the women's game instead)

 

[LIONSxv]

Yeah i agree, and with Baxter looking good and Haffar, Iyogun etc coming through, i cant see Obano getting much more of a look in with England.

I think the battle between him and Fasogabon (and Sela) for the 3 shirt could be fascinating. Little v Large. I personally think Heyes is only a stop gap.

Who is little in that battle both are 6 4 ISH. Sela looks to me to be close to 20 stone

 

[Geordie]

Who is little in that battle both are 6 4 ISH. Sela looks to me to be close to 20 stone

Fordjour is only 5'11 i think , Sela is 6'2 and Fasogabon is 6'4 so it really will be a fascinating watch of 3 different physiques ..and Heyes is 6'3...

 

[LIONSxv]

Fordjour is only 5'11 i think , Sela is 6'2 and Fasogabon is 6'4 so it really will be a fascinating watch of 3 different physiques ..and Heyes is 6'3...

Sela is 6 4 proper unit. But didn't realise you were on about AOF. He is much smaller than the other two
Fasogabon needs lots of work before he is ready for test level. Obano proper worked him over at the weekend.

 

[Weldit]

I'm still not sure what "change" people wanted - beyond "not that"
It seems to be the optics of the bonus (in which case, blame the people who wrote the contract) and giving less free money to the Championship (and giving it to the women's game instead)

There was a report on the contract. The board were warned about what it meant and how it would look, but chose to ignore it. Job for the boys. The future of the prem is not looking good imo.

 

[Geordie]

Sela is 6 4 proper unit. But didn't realise you were on about AOF. He is much smaller than the other two
Fasogabon needs lots of work before he is ready for test level. Obano proper worked him over at the weekend.

Yeah was talking about Fordjour. I think Fasogabon was improving but the injury just came at a really unfortunate time. He was getting plenty of time for Gloucester. He could well get a run out for the A game and a tour as 3rd choice.
Heyes will go as starter which will let us see how he copes in that role and Fordjour can show what he can do off the bench.

Sela is only listed as 6'2 but I really like what he brings. He's a bit behind the other two at the moment but it can only benefit England having these come through....and the other lad who was at tighthead for the U20s this 6n.....can't remember his name.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Sela at Bath is behind TDT, Stuart, Griffins, so that's three international tight heads.

Something has to change there.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Sela at Bath is behind TDT, Stuart, Griffins, so that's three international tight heads.

Something has to change there.

Probably, but maybe not yet. Not even turned 20 yet.

I'd have thought he's got a higher ceiling than Griffin?

And I think it's accepted that Stuart has learned a lot from the try machine du Toit. For a year or 2 it's probably worth him staying to soak up the knowledge of those 2 and getting some game time during international windows and covering injury etc.

But yes, all players want and need game time.

 

[BPM]

Griffin is only an international tighthead because Wales are desperately lacking options, not because he is a test class player. He may be in future, but he isn't now. I think it's possible Sela has already leapfrogged him.

Learning behind two very good tightheads is not a bad place to be. Arguably the high level of first team exposure Fasogbon and AOF are getting is too much too soon.

 

[Which Tyler]

Sela at Bath is behind TDT, Stuart, Griffins, so that's three international tight heads.

Something has to change there.

I wouldn't be so sure that Sela is behind Griffin - but with Griffin's health issues, we don't actually know. He's certainly not an international on merit.

Du Toit and Stuart are a decade older than Sela, and will be approaching retirement by the time Sela's ready for international honours. He's a 19 year old prop, 4-5 years away from having an adult skeleton. There is absolutely no need to worry about his place being blocked at this stage of his career.

Sale being willing to break a promising young player doesn't mean that that's a good thing - even if the gamble pays off (in terms of his rugby career, I'd be gobsmacked if it pays off in terms of his post-career health)

For those still unfamiliar with my semi-regular moan

How much 1st class rugby should young props/hookers play?

I put this post in another thread (on another board) a few days ago (actually, 3-4 years ago now, but I wasn't here then, and I've just found it again to link elsewhere in reference to Corbs' latest knee op); which got largely ignored as the thread turned into the match thread for the All...

www.therugbyforum.com

 

[higgik]

I wouldn't be so sure that Sela is behind Griffin - but with Griffin's health issues, we don't actually know. He's certainly not an international on merit.

Du Toit and Stuart are a decade older than Sela, and will be approaching retirement by the time Sela's ready for international honours. He's a 19 year old prop, 4-5 years away from having an adult skeleton. There is absolutely no need to worry about his place being blocked at this stage of his career.

Sale being willing to break a promising young player doesn't mean that that's a good thing - even if the gamble pays off (in terms of his rugby career, I'd be gobsmacked if it pays off in terms of his post-career health)

For those still unfamiliar with my semi-regular moan

How much 1st class rugby should young props/hookers play?

I put this post in another thread (on another board) a few days ago (actually, 3-4 years ago now, but I wasn't here then, and I've just found it again to link elsewhere in reference to Corbs' latest knee op); which got largely ignored as the thread turned into the match thread for the All...

www.therugbyforum.com

But not getting game time is an issue

Would like to see these players as bench for Championship teams, to get match experience.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I wouldn't be so sure that Sela is behind Griffin - but with Griffin's health issues, we don't actually know. He's certainly not an international on merit.

Du Toit and Stuart are a decade older than Sela, and will be approaching retirement by the time Sela's ready for international honours. He's a 19 year old prop, 4-5 years away from having an adult skeleton. There is absolutely no need to worry about his place being blocked at this stage of his career.

Sale being willing to break a promising young player doesn't mean that that's a good thing - even if the gamble pays off (in terms of his rugby career, I'd be gobsmacked if it pays off in terms of his post-career health)

For those still unfamiliar with my semi-regular moan

How much 1st class rugby should young props/hookers play?

I put this post in another thread (on another board) a few days ago (actually, 3-4 years ago now, but I wasn't here then, and I've just found it again to link elsewhere in reference to Corbs' latest knee op); which got largely ignored as the thread turned into the match thread for the All...

www.therugbyforum.com

Totally agree with you.

But your post is 10 years old and medical thinking evolves rapidly (something I had diagnosed in 2014 is viewed very differently now), but I guess this isn't one of those areas?