England 2024/25

[Geordie]

"IF" Kpoku comes back as seems likely now (just the timeline to be sorted)...then Itojes position will come under threat...as hes a bigger faster more aggressive version of him...Itoje Mk 2.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

In several years maybe, they're not even in the same stratosphere atm
Kpoku looked poor vs Sale the other week, Hill and Bamber had him and Rowlands on toast

He's 19 though, he's one for the next RWC cycle at which point Itoje will be 33 and probably go top up his pension in France or Japan


Can't get my head around people wanting Itoje gone

 

[Geordie]

Hes been playing well in the Pro 14. Dont think it'll be several years either...if he comes back...he could even be in the summer tour.

Dont rate Rowlands and to be fair, Hill and Bamber are a huge good combo.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You really think Itoje is going to lose his spot to Kpoku this summer?

I mean I'm a big fan of Kpoku, but he doesn't look anywhere near as ready as, say, the props do - it's all potential at this stage
I'd want to cap him just to keep him away from France, but I doubt he moves back until the RWC season anyway

 

[Geordie]

I didnt say that....

I said "IF" he comes back then Itojes spot is under threat - a challenge for him. "IF" he comes back he could very well go on the summer tour, which Itoje shouldnt as he should be a lion.

Then your another season on...Itoje 31 and Kpoku 20 and what a great position to be in....both in the squad challenging for the same spot.

 

[Crash Hamster]

You really think Itoje is going to lose his spot to Kpoku this summer?

I mean I'm a big fan of Kpoku, but he doesn't look anywhere near as ready as, say, the props do - it's all potential at this stage
I'd want to cap him just to keep him away from France, but I doubt he moves back until the RWC season anyway

Itoje will be away with teh Lions, so it's possible Kpoku keeps the spot warm...

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

They both are, really - Isiekwe has mostly played tighthead lock since returning from his time at Saints
there's a few 4 and 6 outings, especially a few seasons back, but he's pretty much settled at 5 as his main position now

Wait a minute, 4 should be the TH lock if going on more recent choices (of the shirt number) but different teams seem to choose a different lock number to be the TH one. So would need to see where he was actually packing down in the scrum.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Itoje will be away with teh Lions, so it's possible Kpoku keeps the spot warm...

Not without walking out on the contract he signed a few months ago, first

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wait a minute, 4 should be the TH lock if going on more recent choices (of the shirt number) but different teams seem to choose a different lock number to be the TH one. So would need to see where he was actually packing down in the scrum.

He packs down at tighthead

Don't know why sides have started swapping 4 and 5 round, makes no sense

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Do think we under value experience sometimes, especially in the front 5 where Kopoku, AOF, Fasogbon etc are currently getting a lot of attention.

But who were the props who held up against the Boks in the 23 semi? A couple of crafty 30 somethings who'd been around the block and learned from their experiences, good and bad.

George feels like he's been around forever, yet only made his test debut a couple of months before his 25th birthday, getting splinters in his backside for most of the next 3 years before nailing down the starting shirt. Martin Johnson was only a few weeks shy of his 23rd birthday when he made his debut.

Boks the latest in a line of RWC winners with a shedload of experience.

If the kids are good enough then play them. But there's good, there's consistently good and there's good against top opposition. All things being equal you should be a much better player at 28 than 20 when peak physicality meets experience.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

"IF" Kpoku comes back as seems likely now (just the timeline to be sorted)...then Itojes position will come under threat...as hes a bigger faster more aggressive version of him...Itoje Mk 2.

When I first saw Itoje play I thought he was going to be an allround player and be good with ball in hand as well. It hasnt turned out that way. He made a break in the game against Bristol and looked really really slow.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Do think we under value experience sometimes, especially in the front 5 where Kopoku, AOF, Fasogbon etc are currently getting a lot of attention.

But who were the props who held up against the Boks in the 23 semi? A couple of crafty 30 somethings who'd been around the block and learned from their experiences, good and bad.

George feels like he's been around forever, yet only made his test debut a couple of months before his 25th birthday, getting splinters in his backside for most of the next 3 years before nailing down the starting shirt. Martin Johnson was only a few weeks shy of his 23rd birthday when he made his debut.

Boks the latest in a line of RWC winners with a shedload of experience.

If the kids are good enough then play them. But there's good, there's consistently good and there's good against top opposition. All things being equal you should be a much better player at 28 than 20 when peak physicality meets experience.

The issue is experience earned and experience had through favouritism. Is Youngs our best SH ever? Nope. Farrell our best 10? Nope. Did either really take games by the scruff of the neck and provide a steadying hand when things went wrong? Nope. By the end in fact they were 2 of the players making the most stupid errors such as bodily chucking intercepts.

Experience comes from consistently being the best or near best for your position. It involves fighting off all challenges. England under Jones handed out tons of caps to build a highly experienced team but there's not much argument to claim that the number of caps those players had was really representative of their performance.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Not without walking out on the contract he signed a few months ago, first

Indeed. It's not likely, but not impossible. The current (and previous) regime have form for picking the player du jour. Who knows? A summer back row of Pepper, Pollock and Kenningham as CCS is considered past it?

It really shouldn't be like this, but it's ever harder to pick players who have improved since being discarded; I think Johnny Hill may be a good case in point.

 

[Reiser99]

I had a thought about Borthwick's stats and especially the one about players maybe not being ready or standing around in terms of percentages. Is it possible that players feel they have to be so ready and active to meet the stats that it actually tires them quicker and that's why England struggle at the end of games? Take 8 for example. One of the primary roles is to be a carrier. You want that explosion of power to get across the game line. Yet if you're so busy trying to do lots of extra work to meet a quota, you're actually wasting energy that you could be conserving for that big carry.

I know some people will say they are professional athletes, but in terms of elite sport, those small extras can add up into a big difference.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The issue is experience earned and experience had through favouritism. Is Youngs our best SH ever? Nope. Farrell our best 10? Nope. Did either really take games by the scruff of the neck and provide a steadying hand when things went wrong? Nope. By the end in fact they were 2 of the players making the most stupid errors such as bodily chucking intercepts.

Experience comes from consistently being the best or near best for your position. It involves fighting off all challenges. England under Jones handed out tons of caps to build a highly experienced team but there's not much argument to claim that the number of caps those players had was really representative of their performance.

I think Jones had the principle right, but the execution wrong. Favourites retained their places regardless and players need the threat of consequence to drive performance. Being dropped isn't career over but a chance to regroup, relight the fires and remind everyone why you were so good in the first place. Youngs, Farrell, the Vunipolae, Sinckler and yes, Itoje all had sustained spells where they underperformed. Comfort zones don't tend to bring out the best.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Feyi - Waboso is out of the entire six nations as he opted to have the shoulder surgery. Probably the best for his career but a blow for the short term.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Definitely sounds the better option for him long term

Shame to be going into the 6N missing 2/3 of our first choice back 3 but there's a lot of good back 3 players knocking about atm

My guess is Daly in for Furbank and Murley in for IFW and a first game back 3 of Sleightholme, Freeman, Steward

Shame Hendy's shoulder is effed - if he'd kept up that form he could be in with an outside shout

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Feyi - Waboso is out of the entire six nations as he opted to have the shoulder surgery. Probably the best for his career but a blow for the short term.

Yeah, right decision.

He's also missed something like 3 internationals in the last year due to 2 separate concussions. He's not in the realms of injury prone yet, but could use a change in luck.

 

[Geordie]

Do think we under value experience sometimes, especially in the front 5 where Kopoku, AOF, Fasogbon etc are currently getting a lot of attention.

But who were the props who held up against the Boks in the 23 semi? A couple of crafty 30 somethings who'd been around the block and learned from their experiences, good and bad.

George feels like he's been around forever, yet only made his test debut a couple of months before his 25th birthday, getting splinters in his backside for most of the next 3 years before nailing down the starting shirt. Martin Johnson was only a few weeks shy of his 23rd birthday when he made his debut.

Boks the latest in a line of RWC winners with a shedload of experience.

If the kids are good enough then play them. But there's good, there's consistently good and there's good against top opposition. All things being equal you should be a much better player at 28 than 20 when peak physicality meets experience.

Agree 100%..
Experience is critical, vital in fact...

In many cases at the moment the elder statesmen have been playing better...Cole for all he got moaned about was brought back because he was the best tight head for example. Its only now the youngsters are slowly creeping through.

Ford is another one. To some he might not warrant being selected in the squad or starting, but the general feedback from the squad is that he almost acts like another coaching team member. So his inclusion / importance becomes clear for Marcus and Fin Smiths development. And most WC winning sides are flooded with experience and have huge cap numbers.

BUT
The experienced player has to be performing better than the young pretender.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

BUT
The experienced player has to be performing better than the young pretender.

Yep, although I'd put the onus on the emerging player to make a compelling case why change is necessary. Of course the best approach is clear succession planning with experience gained from the bench as happened with George / Hartley and Cane / McCaw.

Youngsters thrown in at an early age can succeed and go on to have long, illustrious international careers. But for every Wilkinson, Itoje or Etzebeth, tons more talented players have been spat out along the way.