England 2024/25

[Geordie]

Chessum apparently available for selection now...if he gets some game time...and looks good..

6 Chessum
7 Underhill
8 Willis

Subs
CCS
Earl

Strong back row and major impact from the bench...

Kenningham is playing himself into the conversation through aswell...

Means we can rest Tom Curry...

 

[BMatt]

Don't get the point in only doing two games in Argentina - hope they chuck in one, or two, vs Tier 2 sides while with in South America too

More likely to see a Barbarians game at Twickenham for the £££ though

Good news. England will play the USA after the Argentina matches.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Means we can rest Tom Curry...

Why do we need to do that?

Ben's the form 7 in the league atm anyway

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Itoje's playing some good rugby. But yesterday was his 8th yellow in 21 games which is mad. OK, much of that's at club level, but if you struggle to keep your discipline at that level logic says it will be even harder internationally. Either way, not what you expect from a senior player, and is allied to a historically pretty high personal penalty count.

Might be that he's one of those you only get the best from when he's right on the edge. But you hope he'd be a bit smarter by now and human nature means that refs will be aware of his reputation.

A single penalty alone undoes so much good work. Yellows on top of that even worse. I don't think Itoje should be untouchable, his discipline for ages has been very poor and I think he should be benched or sat out of the team until he gets his act together. A junior player making such mistakes is more forgivable but a senior player who has been a consistent starter for his club and country for years should know better. People should be complaining about how player X always gets away with it (McCaw style) rather than noting how they get pinged more than average.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Benched for who?

 

[BPM]

Exactly. If Chessum was fit, in form and playing at lock, it might be a worthwhile conversation. Since he is not, let's stop the silly talk.

IIRC, the yellow was the straw that broke the camel's back in a string of penalty offences in the red zone. Yes, Itoje should probably know better but it wasn't a dumb penalty, more the last of an accumulation from the team.

 

[Crash Hamster]

To be fair, Cardey (sorry, Carley) listed three offences by Itoje personally in about 30 seconds when he sent him for a rest.

 

[BPM]

This is an odd place at the best of times, but today we've had posters claiming Italy have better players than we do and others calling for Itoje to be dropped.

 

[Geordie]

Why do we need to do that?

Ben's the form 7 in the league atm anyway

I was referring to Tom purely for his long term health.

I have no problems with Ben being in the squad...he's one of the form 7s...

 

[BPM]

Borthwick was roundly criticised for picking Slade and Ford immediately after coming back from injury. Apparently, the same reasoning doesn't apply for Chessum. How come?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

When's Chessum due back?
If he gets 2 starts for tigers under his belt before the 6N I'm OK with it but any less than that is iffy

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Exactly. If Chessum was fit, in form and playing at lock, it might be a worthwhile conversation. Since he is not, let's stop the silly talk.

IIRC, the yellow was the straw that broke the camel's back in a string of penalty offences in the red zone. Yes, Itoje should probably know better but it wasn't a dumb penalty, more the last of an accumulation from the team.

Not exactly silly talk, Itoje has been a penalty machine for ages, we've all complained about it. Only occasionally has he put in performances that offset his frequent penalties.

 

[Geordie]

Borthwick was roundly criticised for picking Slade and Ford immediately after coming back from injury. Apparently, the same reasoning doesn't apply for Chessum. How come?

Slade and ford had no games.. IF Chessum is back and plays several games for the Tigers and plays well then he'll be available. If he's not playing but becomes fit for the start of the 6n as per Slade /Ford then id rather he wasn't picked.

 

[BPM]

Not exactly silly talk, Itoje has been a penalty machine for ages, we've all complained about it. Only occasionally has he put in performances that offset his frequent penalties.

It's silly to propose dropping a top class player whilst offering no alternative.

I can't remember who it was, but there was a poster constantly asking for us to pick a 'monster' lock without acknowledging that you can't pick players that don't exist. This reminds me a bit of that. If Chessum is genuinely fit and firing, we have a viable alternative. If he's not, I don't think we do right now.

I'm not saying Itoje (or any player for that matter) should be impossible to drop, but selecting a significantly inferior player in their place creates a lot more problems that it might solve.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It's silly to propose dropping a top class player whilst offering no alternative.

I can't remember who it was, but there was a poster constantly asking for us to pick a 'monster' lock without acknowledging that you can't pick players that don't exist. This reminds me a bit of that. If Chessum is genuinely fit and firing, we have a viable alternative. If he's not, I don't think we do right now.

I'm not saying Itoje (or any player for that matter) should be impossible to drop, but selecting a significantly inferior player in their place creates a lot more problems that it might solve.

His top class performances have been here and there but his high penalty count has been consistent for years. Wasn't it only last year he alone in a game accounted for something like 1/3rd of all the penalties we gave as a team and very rarely got through games without giving away at least 1 penalty. He may technically still be up there but his discipline has been consistently poor for a long time with no signs of him improving it.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

This is an odd place at the best of times, but today we've had posters claiming Italy have better players than we do and others calling for Itoje to be dropped.

Sorry I was just talking about Italys centres, should have put that in the last bit of the post.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'd be happy to drop Itoje to the bench if Chessum was playing how he was before.

I've said it before but 4. Martin 5. Chessum would be my starting England lock combo but they both seem to be injured all the time.

With Cole's not in form if we do drop Itoje who actually comes in? We need a couple more locks to come through. The other options in the squad currently are Ewels and Iseikwe who perform greatly at international level.

Need 4 good locks but that depends on where Chessum plays as well.

 

[Geordie]

The issue with the locks is the fall off from the top 3/4 and the rest is big, in my opinion.

Martin, itoje, Chessum are way ahead then probably Coles.

Ewells, Isiekwe...etc just fall short at international level. And even then Chessum seems to be heading for 6 at the moment...

I think it's why they're so desperate to bring young Kpoku back across....

Many of the hopefuls from the last few U20 squads have failed to push on for a variety of reasons. Maybe the big lad at Saracens can come through...Forget his name...Sodike?

 

[Saintjay]

Itoje has gone from possibley being one of England's few Lions starters to a bench spot for England. At this rate we'll have no England players starting for the Lions. Which is arguably possible any way

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Itoje has gone from possibley being one of England's few Lions starters to a bench spot for England.

I mean… he hasn't.