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England 2024/25

A question I have for all the Marcus smith did well for England fans, if he's so good why couldn't he get the centres involved?

Are we blaming that on the centres? Ollie L didn't touch the ball playing at 12 after the 11th minute vs New Zealand. Need to find the other stats but that 10 12 13 doesn't work. If we are so set of Marcus we need a new 12.
Lawrence isnt a 12, and Slade hadnt played for Months so was way off match fitness...and probably both missing time playing together. It doesnt help.

Find a 12, (a couple are on the horizon) move Lawrence to 13 and pick them consistently...and have good coaches who can provide the correct tactics.
 
I rate him highly. Big, strong hooker who is good at the nuts and bolts and is a handful in the loose. I'm surprised he's not at least picked up an A cap.
Yeah, i thought hed have been looked at a bit more. Always just looks very good. Maybe he'll get a run out in the summer A game.

With George on the wane, and Dan not really selling it....theres opportunities for young hookers to really put their hand up. Although what Langdon has to do to get picked who knows....
 
It takes time to develop an understanding and create synergy.

I don't think chopping and changing players will help unless you can miraculously find a partnership that gels immediately.
I agree, my issue is that I don't think Borthwick still has a clear idea of how he wants his team to play and how to select the right team to match the tactics. He had his safety first style, then dropped it in favour of a more attacking one to please fans, but this autumn England seemed to swing from an attacking style to a defensive style very quickly, especially when subs came on. I still don't see a consistent game plan across 80 minutes. England don't have a clear identity and that not only makes it harder for players coming on as a sub or coming into the squad, but also makes it hard for players to gel.

England need to develop a clear plan and identity that they can develop. Borthwick then needs to pick the players to meet this style and give them time. At the moment, it feels more like throwing mud at the wall and seeing what sticks.
 
I agree, my issue is that I don't think Borthwick still has a clear idea of how he wants his team to play and how to select the right team to match the tactics. He had his safety first style, then dropped it in favour of a more attacking one to please fans, but this autumn England seemed to swing from an attacking style to a defensive style very quickly, especially when subs came on. I still don't see a consistent game plan across 80 minutes. England don't have a clear identity and that not only makes it harder for players coming on as a sub or coming into the squad, but also makes it hard for players to gel.

England need to develop a clear plan and identity that they can develop. Borthwick then needs to pick the players to meet this style and give them time. At the moment, it feels more like throwing mud at the wall and seeing what sticks.
I think your right....and thats the concern. SB seems caught in a bit of limbo of what he wants to do.

All of this cant be helped with the Walters, Jones situation and having El Abd only part time essentially at the moment. And what does Wigglesworth bring as an attack coach?
 
I think your right....and thats the concern. SB seems caught in a bit of limbo of what he wants to do.

All of this cant be helped with Walters, Jones situation and having El Abd only part time essentially at the moment.
I really would love to know who is to blame for that before using it as an excuse. If it was just Walters and Jones not honouring their contracts then yeah, you can't blame Borthwick. However, I find that unlikely. If it's the way Borthwick runs his setup then he also has to take the blame for the situation. If it's the RFU then again it can't be used completely as an excuse because they are in control of the situation to an extent. I know we're unlikely to find out anytime soon, but it's part of a pattern that started under Jones and has continued under Borthwick. If it was a one off then sure it's a reason, when it's part of an existing issue then it can't be used to justify poor results.
 
I really would love to know who is to blame for that before using it as an excuse. If it was just Walters and Jones not honouring their contracts then yeah, you can't blame Borthwick. However, I find that unlikely. If it's the way Borthwick runs his setup then he also has to take the blame for the situation. If it's the RFU then again it can't be used completely as an excuse because they are in control of the situation to an extent. I know we're unlikely to find out anytime soon, but it's part of a pattern that started under Jones and has continued under Borthwick. If it was a one off then sure it's a reason, when it's part of an existing issue then it can't be used to justify poor results.
I think it absolutely can be...constant coach changes, tactical changes etc completely effect the team.

However,
I absolutely agree with the point your making...when that issue is a consistent (as it has seemingly become) then you have to ask what or who is the root cause....
 
I agree that Marcus has necessarily got the best out of the team. However, in the AIs in particular, he got a very ropey platform from the forwards which massively limited his options. I don't think we had a particular problem getting the backline moving at the end of the 6N or in NZ but I think we really missed Mitchell's speed of delivery and sniping threat to keep defences guessing. In the AIs Marcus had to pull rabbits out of hats and then gets criticised for being 'too individual'. I suspect Fin, Ford or most other 10s would have had similar struggles but probably wouldn't have had the flair/ability to conjure anything up and quite possibly failed to get us beyond the gainline or just kicked away possession. We'll never know but IMO, England would almost certainly have scored less points without Marcus' ability to create something out of nothing.

The other thing I find weird is the claim that Marcus only creates for himself. Total rubbish. Take Walker's try at the weekend as a prime example: he uses his individual skills to create space and will usually pick out the best supporting runner. That's no different for England. If anything, I feel like we should be criticising other England players for not being alive to the opportunities Marcus creates. It's not like he's just starting playing the way he does.

But by all means, let's blame our only bright spot.

Agree with all that.

The point about criticising other players not being alive to his opportunities is an interesting one. I agree, but sometimes players just aren't on each other's wavelengths and we're after the best combination. Who knows what that is, but a 12 at 12 would be a good start.

You were also right to highlight the importance of Mitchell and the need for the pack to up its game.
 
All of this cant be helped with the Walters, Jones situation and having El Abd only part time essentially at the moment. And what does Wigglesworth bring as an attack coach?

Doesn't help for sure. But they were all SB appointees and the buck stops with him.

Failure to surround himself with, and retain, an experienced international level coaching team from outset was SB's biggest mistake.
 
Agree with all that.

The point about criticising other players not being alive to his opportunities is an interesting one. I agree, but sometimes players just aren't on each other's wavelengths and we're after the best combination. Who knows what that is, but a 12 at 12 would be a good start.

You were also right to highlight the importance of Mitchell and the need for the pack to up its game.
I'm speculating here but I suspect one of the issues - particularly on first phase ball - is that we set out with the intention of running a pre-called move, but have to make a quick decision on whether it's still on or not when the scrum or lineout doesn't deliver a good enough platform (which it hasn't been). Farrell would probably have gone ahead regardless, whereas Marcus is much more likely to rip it up the planned move and play what he sees. For the centres, that must be harder to read.

However, I don't think you need to be massively on the same wavelength to know Marcus will probably play off the cuff. If you're an international player, I believe you should be alive to the possibility of a break and even more so when it's someone like Marcus on the ball. It still looks like half the team are surprised when he spots a gap and is gone, which means the support is usually sub optimal. Simply put, if players get on his shoulder, they will get the ball. It's not just Marcus either - it's often the same with other less predictable players too. It's a similar problem when IFW makes a break. Our players are just too slow to react which is infuriating.

Where I think Marcus can and should do better is in communicating what he's going to do. In the moment that's probably impossible, but let's say we're 10-15 into the game and we know our set piece isn't dominating, he could say "guys, we're going to run a dummy switch pop if it's clean ball, but if it's messy, I'm going to aim to target the x channel, so be ready to get on my shoulder". Maybe he already does that, but I'm not totally sure he is.

Obviously all of that is harder In unstructured play, but if you know there's a 50:50 chance he's going to make a break, why not gamble and be ready to support?
 
I'm speculating here but I suspect one of the issues - particularly on first phase ball - is that we set out with the intention of running a pre-called move, but have to make a quick decision on whether it's still on or not when the scrum or lineout doesn't deliver a good enough platform (which it hasn't been). Farrell would probably have gone ahead regardless, whereas Marcus is much more likely to rip it up the planned move and play what he sees. For the centres, that must be harder to read.

However, I don't think you need to be massively on the same wavelength to know Marcus will probably play off the cuff. If you're an international player, I believe you should be alive to the possibility of a break and even more so when it's someone like Marcus on the ball. It still looks like half the team are surprised when he spots a gap and is gone, which means the support is usually sub optimal. Simply put, if players get on his shoulder, they will get the ball. It's not just Marcus either - it's often the same with other less predictable players too. It's a similar problem when IFW makes a break. Our players are just too slow to react which is infuriating.

Where I think Marcus can and should do better is in communicating what he's going to do. In the moment that's probably impossible, but let's say we're 10-15 into the game and we know our set piece isn't dominating, he could say "guys, we're going to run a dummy switch pop if it's clean ball, but if it's messy, I'm going to aim to target the x channel, so be ready to get on my shoulder". Maybe he already does that, but I'm not totally sure he is.

Obviously all of that is harder In unstructured play, but if you know there's a 50:50 chance he's going to make a break, why not gamble and be ready to support?
Exactly what happens at Quins.
There is always a 'safe option'.
 
He needs George to step down to second choice and allow him to tke the first choice at club but because George I'd England captain even though declining he has to be first choice.

It's hindering Dan and at 24 if he wants to be England's first choice he needs to be at club level.
I think when Blamire joins Tigers he will drop back into the EPS
 
Blamire, Oghre, Walker etc. are all good players, but I think Langdon and Blake are both better. Weird they're either not favoured or completely overlooked.
 
Blamire, Oghre, Walker etc. are all good players, but I think Langdon and Blake are both better. Weird they're either not favoured or completely overlooked.
News from some inside the camp is that Borthwicks spreadsheet persona is not far from the truth. He will have certain statistics he wants players to meet and if they meet them, they get a look in, if they don't, they don't.
 
News from some inside the camp is that Borthwicks spreadsheet persona is not far from the truth. He will have certain statistics he wants players to meet and if they meet them, they get a look in, if they don't, they don't.
What kind of stats though because some stats are boosted or hindered based on who you play for.
 
He'd need to improve his lineout astronomically for that
Yeah, I've sang his praises hugely ..and his play in general is very good and aggressive...but his lineout is awful and simply not improving. Its cost us missed tries and given away tries this season.
I actually think him moving in the summer has solved one of Diamonds falcons problems...
 
Yeah, I've sang his praises hugely ..and his play in general is very good and aggressive...but his lineout is awful and simply not improving. Its cost us missed tries and given away tries this season.
I actually think him moving in the summer has solved one of Diamonds falcons problems...
Line out isn't always on the hooker
 
News from some inside the camp is that Borthwicks spreadsheet persona is not far from the truth. He will have certain statistics he wants players to meet and if they meet them, they get a look in, if they don't, they don't.
Well don't most international and top club sides work to Stats?

Ted Hill...I and many others constantly champion him, but I saw some stats a while back that highlighted very clearly why he's not in the race. His tackle rate is very low, as is many stats critical to his position. Players like Tom Curry and Sam Underhill etc just blow him out the water, and Chessum also which is why he's considered at 6 above Hill.
 
Line out isn't always on the hooker
No it's not, but we have a good Lineout coach and some good lineout jumpers...

It will be interesting to see how he goes with the Tigers but I will genuinely be surprised if it improves hugely.

LCD was awful in the Lineout when he first start but he improved dramatically.
 
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